Navigating The Drama Triangle As An NP

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Written By Liz Rohr
 

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Show notes:

In this episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Brooke Nielsen to explore a topic that is both fascinating and incredibly relevant to our work as healthcare professionals—the Drama Triangle. We've all seen it, whether we recognized it at the time or not. Those moments when interactions with colleagues or patients suddenly feel like a scene straight out of a play, with clear roles of victim, rescuer, and persecutor taking shape.

Brooke and I explored how these roles influence our work environment, especially for nurse practitioners. We shared stories, insights, and, most importantly, practical strategies for stepping out of these roles. The goal? To foster a more supportive, healthy work environment where we can all thrive, professionally and personally.

Understanding the Drama Triangle isn't just academic; it's about making real changes in how we interact every day. From recognizing when we're slipping into one of these roles to setting boundaries that protect our well-being and the quality of care we provide, this conversation is a stepping stone to more effective, fulfilling professional relationships.

Tune in to find out how you can start recognizing and changing these dynamics in your own clinical setting. It's an episode packed with insights for nurse practitioners and anyone keen on creating a healthier workplace culture.

In today’s episode, we talk about:

  • Understanding the Drama Triangle

  • Impact of the Drama Triangle in clinical settings

  • Strategies for recognizing and changing dysfunctional dynamics

  • The importance of boundary management for healthcare professionals

  • 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:11:04

    Speaker 1

    Definitely. And I don't think that anybody who's going into this rescue role inadvertently actually wants that. And so I think that's like a really helpful reminder of like, no, if we actually want to help people, we can't do that.


    00:00:11:09 - 00:00:31:17

    Speaker 2

    That's right. That's right. And we shift into more of a coach or more of a leader ourselves, shifting into how can I be assertive in my own life for me, how can I support others in going, You've got this. Yeah, I says, are you okay? I'm is this are you got this? Yeah. What are you going to do?


    00:00:31:17 - 00:00:36:16

    Speaker 2

    What are you thinking of doing? It's shifting into a totally different vibe with ourselves. Totally. Well, hey.


    00:00:36:16 - 00:00:58:07

    Speaker 1

    There. It's Liz Rohr from Real World, and here. And you are watching the Real World MP YouTube channel. We make weekly episodes to help save you time, frustration and help you take the best care of your patients. In this episode, I have a guest. Her name is Brooke Nielsen. So we are going to be talking. I'm going to read her bio in a second.


    00:00:58:07 - 00:01:25:17

    Speaker 1

    But what we're talking about on this episode is this concept called drama triangle. And that may sound like, what does that have to do with me? Why are we talking about this On the Nurse Practitioner Continuing Education podcast, That YouTube episode, I just have to tell you, this was so revolutionary for me in terms of understanding how I show up in my role as a nurse practitioner, especially in the, you know, both in my personal life, but especially in the workplace setting.


    00:01:25:19 - 00:01:50:19

    Speaker 1

    I think that what I've noticed over the years with real world MP is that there's a lot of dysfunction when it comes to clinical settings and when we can recognize some of the pieces of how it's working, it can help us show up better as the clinician, as the leader that we are. So at the beginning of this episode, I kind of lay some context about why this is important and we start getting into what that concept means.


    00:01:50:21 - 00:02:14:21

    Speaker 1

    I promise to stick around with us if it seems a little bit outside of, you know, clinical continuing education, like it is a little bit novel. And every single person who's a clinician that I've talked to about the concept of drama triangle, how it shows up, what it means and how it affects our work life, especially in dysfunctional settings, has been like, whoa, like, just like this is like, I can't believe this, right?


    00:02:14:21 - 00:02:27:05

    Speaker 1

    So I think this is an extremely important episode to help you understand how to navigate dysfunctional clinic settings, but also like how to navigate your role as a leader. And I actually give a.


    00:02:27:05 - 00:02:28:19

    Speaker 2

    Little bit of some and as.


    00:02:28:21 - 00:02:49:10

    Speaker 1

    Well embarrassing stories, but it's something I'm not like super thrilled about in terms of like mistakes that I've made as a nurse practitioner, as a brand new grad. So if you are nosy like I am and want to hear a little bit about that story, I share that as one of the context of how drama Triangle shows up and how I was participating in the drama triangle and how it led to some not great stuff.


    00:02:49:10 - 00:03:13:03

    Speaker 1

    So but yeah, so Brooke Nielsen is she's a licensed therapist, coach, writer, pronouns are she her excuse me and speaker who lives near the mountains of Boulder, Colorado. She's the founder of the therapeutic center for highly sensitive People, as well as Intuitive Warrior, which is a coaching company for sensitive creatives, entrepreneurs and helpers. She has advanced training in trauma therapy, relationships and sensitivity.


    00:03:13:05 - 00:03:33:07

    Speaker 1

    Brooke has spent almost two decades helping thousands of finely tuned people find freedom from anxiety and build trust with their sensitive selves. So she is a therapist and coach, specifically working with empaths, empathic people, and highly sensitive people, which I identify as We can talk about more about that and have her back. If you want to hear more about what a highly sensitive person is.


    00:03:33:09 - 00:03:54:01

    Speaker 1

    But yeah, I hope that you enjoy this episode. Just give it a listen. Throw in your headphones or put it on in the car when you're on your way to a clinic. And yeah, I just I think you're really going to appreciate really, and appreciate it. this is so fun. I'm so excited. I mean, I say that about every podcast, episode and YouTube episode, but I really am.


    00:03:54:03 - 00:04:11:22

    Speaker 1

    So we're going to talk about drama triangles, but I'm going to lay some context for people. So the goal and I'm just going to read some some stuff that I shared with you. So the goal of Real World and P, we really want to support the transition of practice for new grads because when you leave grad school, they feel really overwhelmed, unprepared.


    00:04:11:22 - 00:04:40:23

    Speaker 1

    They don't feel competent. But we're here to really support them over the transition over the next three years, which is about the time it takes for them to feel competent and like clinical practice. And one of the things that I'm noting as I've done the podcast and the YouTube channel, I've talked so much about clinical topics, but the role transition piece is such a big part that's not really spoken about until people get into the clinical practice space where they're put in a leadership position, not necessarily that they have the direct reports or that they have to, you know, give evaluations to or anything like that.


    00:04:40:23 - 00:04:58:21

    Speaker 1

    But it's this kind of like influence without authority type of leadership position. And and so I've been making a lot of episodes recently that are more specifically related to that kind of personal development piece of that inner leadership, that inner work that we need to do if we're going to be effective leaders and confident in ourselves when we're in that role.


    00:04:58:22 - 00:05:02:12

    Speaker 1

    So yeah, so one of the things that came up that's come up a lot.


    00:05:02:14 - 00:05:03:18

    Speaker 2

    And I can remember.


    00:05:03:20 - 00:05:21:01

    Speaker 1

    How I just it occurred to me that to ask you to come on the, on the channel and on the podcast. But one of the things that I notice a lot is that people go into clinical practice wanting to do like a really good job, right? They just want to make health care a better place. They want to affect systems and they want to you know, a lot of people want to work in like underserved communities.


    00:05:21:03 - 00:05:30:04

    Speaker 1

    And you know, nonprofit clinics that don't have a lot of funding. They have like a lot of work to do and not a lot of people power to do it. And there's a lot of dysfunction that can happen.


    00:05:30:06 - 00:05:30:24

    Speaker 2

    So I think.


    00:05:30:24 - 00:05:49:21

    Speaker 1

    That that's I think that that's maybe a place that we can start is like maybe there's an example of like trying to think like every pretty much every person I've talked to about this in the workplace setting has been like, wow, this is like everywhere. This is like wild and fascinating. And so I guess like an example I could potentially think about is just maybe, I don't know and you let me know, Brooke.


    00:05:49:21 - 00:06:04:13

    Speaker 1

    But like, is there like if there's somebody who's in like a leadership position, they want to like, kind of go above and beyond and like, I don't know, it's almost like this kind of savior ish complex. I don't know. I don't know where you want to jump in. Where do you want to jump in with that? What is a drama triangle?


    00:06:04:13 - 00:06:09:16

    Speaker 1

    And can you think of like an example of of how to flesh that out in like a workplace setting?


    00:06:09:18 - 00:06:31:20

    Speaker 2

    I think. Yes, I think let me try to describe this more theoretically. I'm going to give a personal example and I'll start fleshing it out in the workplace setting. Okay. So the drama triangle, I actually learned about this concept through the example I'm going to give through one of my therapist friends who said, I think there's a drama triangle going on right now in your family.


    00:06:31:20 - 00:07:11:22

    Speaker 2

    And I said, What's? So basically, it's this concept that was that was named that is a dynamic that tends to exist in dysfunction or in stressed systems, whether that's the family, the workplace. It can kind of be in any really in any system. And when there is stress, when there is dysfunction, when there is perhaps even a history of trauma, especially in families, we can start to notice these this triangle develop where three roles are available and only three roles.


    00:07:11:22 - 00:07:40:10

    Speaker 2

    And everybody in the dynamic has to fit into one of these roles of either victim, rescuer or persecutor. Okay. Now, for those of us who've done some self-growth work, we know everybody's a complex human. We hear some each other, some ourselves up in one word, I'm just a victim. I'm just a bully or a persecutor. I'm just a savior and just a rescuer.


    00:07:40:12 - 00:08:15:13

    Speaker 2

    That that's very one dimensional and it's not empowering, as we'll talk about. But when you start noticing dysfunction in all settings, you often will see, whoa, people are slotting in to these positions. So I'm going to give you this personal example and then we can flesh out what each of them means. Okay, so here was the setting. This was like, gosh, nine, ten years ago now, I was with my mom and my sister.


    00:08:15:13 - 00:08:37:17

    Speaker 2

    We were in a little cabin that we got. I think it was Christmas time and I was going through a period of time where I was learning to set boundaries in a bigger way with my family, particularly with my mom and my sister. And my mom had not done the personal growth work at that point that I had.


    00:08:37:19 - 00:09:06:09

    Speaker 2

    And so we were used to interacting in a certain way. And suddenly I come in to this Christmas time cabin and I'm coming in with this strong energy. The looking back, I'm like, It was a little messy. I was learning how to do boundaries, but there's strong energy where I was being much more assertive. I was expressing anger more freely to my mom, some about the present and some about the past.


    00:09:06:11 - 00:09:40:06

    Speaker 2

    And my sister, I remember, started reacting to me so strongly. She was enraged. I remember her crying in anger, going, You are being cruel to mom. How could you? You are being cruel. And my mom, I remember, started crying and withdrew to like a bedroom and was like crying and just hurt. And I felt insane. I remember I felt so much shame and was like, What is happening?


    00:09:40:06 - 00:10:01:01

    Speaker 2

    Am I being a horrible person right now? I'm so confused because I thought I'm just I'm just naming some truth here or I'm just sharing. I mean, I don't even remember what it was. It could have been like, Well, that makes me really frustrated that you would say that, because that's actually not what my experience was, right? That was not bullying, that was not yelling.


    00:10:01:03 - 00:10:28:08

    Speaker 2

    So I called my friend Jamie and I said, I don't know what the hell is going on. And I shared with her the scenario and I said, Am I being awful? I was still thrown. And she brings up, I hear the drama triangle. I said, What do you mean, what's that? She explains it. So essentially I in my family system was being put into the role of persecutor.


    00:10:28:10 - 00:10:30:20

    Speaker 1

    I yeah. Like villain is another word I've heard of.


    00:10:30:20 - 00:10:57:21

    Speaker 2

    Villain, villain and hero. Yeah, Yeah. nice. I was being seen as its villain coming in, just like beating people up and being cruel. I mean, that word I was like. And my sister in this case was the rescuer who was going, Mom, as the victim, how dare you not rescue her and enable her manage her feelings? So she came in ready to fight the villain?


    00:10:57:21 - 00:11:29:24

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. And then my mom was in this very disempowered victim role where she was just feeling victimized by me. And rather than being able to be in her adult self and go, Wow, you have an interesting point. Ah. that's really painful to hear. Let's talk about it. She went into this kind of collapse victim feeling. Yeah. So once I realized once I heard that, my gosh, and I saw that, I was able to go, okay, okay, I'm not actually being a villain or a persecutor and I'm going to step outside of that.


    00:11:30:01 - 00:11:42:00

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, they didn't step outside of that, But but it it changed the scenario for me. So does that give kind of a starting picture of what this triangle is or looks like?


    00:11:42:03 - 00:12:02:04

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, Yeah, definitely. I mean, I yeah, I definitely feel like we can talk more of like, you know, like, yeah, like it's a, it's kind of like, it's, it's almost like the self sustaining thing if you're not aware of it was like if you can have, for example, like that dynamic of like you said, you just said something very plainly that they perceived as being very hurtful.


    00:12:02:09 - 00:12:03:23

    Speaker 1

    Right? But like.


    00:12:04:00 - 00:12:05:06

    Speaker 2

    Like to you.


    00:12:05:06 - 00:12:27:02

    Speaker 1

    Could have continued in that situation, right. Of like playing a different role. Right? Like you would be like, I'm actually the victim here. Like, you had this thing with me or like, yes or no, like, like I anyway, need to talk about it. But there's ways that, like, I think what usually happens is my understanding is that it's like if you don't see the pattern is that you kind of just continue to shift roles.


    00:12:27:02 - 00:12:43:05

    Speaker 1

    And so one thing that could have happened with you is that you they they were giving you the message that you were this like persecutor villain. And like what what before you learned about this? Like, what do you feel like would have happened? Can you think of an example of like if you don't see that this dynamic is happening, what would happen?


    00:12:43:07 - 00:13:06:01

    Speaker 2

    What would have happened at one point in my life is I would have collapsed in shame. And gosh, but my gosh, I am being a villain. I'm so sorry, Mom. And I would have gone back into this enmeshed family system, which is often another unhealthy alternative to the goal, which is, my gosh, I should never make you feel uncomfortable.


    00:13:06:01 - 00:13:25:22

    Speaker 2

    That would be one. Yeah. And then the whole system would be like, okay, she's back in line now. Cool. Yeah. Another thing I could have done would be finger pointing, as you said, maybe to my sister. No, you're the persecutor. How dare you put that on me or I could have done that with my mom. No, you are the villain.


    00:13:25:22 - 00:13:45:04

    Speaker 2

    Look at all this stuff that you did in my life. Or I could have switched to trying to protect one of them. So just like you said, the interesting thing is these are all shifts. We can go into different roles and different people. One person might see me as a rescuer, another person might see me as a persecutor, another person might see me as the victim.


    00:13:45:07 - 00:14:09:00

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. So the problem is, like you said, it's self-perpetuating and we get stuck in this cycle. I wonder if now that I've given you that example, if I could go through each one of these and just give a couple more bullet points. Yeah. What each one looks like, people can think about if anybody in their life tends to take on these traits, if they notice in themselves.


    00:14:09:02 - 00:14:11:10

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Any of these qualities.


    00:14:11:12 - 00:14:26:19

    Speaker 1

    I think. I think that would be really helpful because I think that just to like lay some blanks for people because like, we're both doing this like how this shows up on an individual interpersonal level, but also how it shows up in an end. Like, well, we'll pull it back to the to the nurse practitioner context of like being in a workplace setting, for example.


    00:14:26:22 - 00:14:46:01

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, Yeah. I think it's, it's it's, I think it's yeah. Really helpful to see like just, just starting to tune in for, for someone who's watching or listening is just starting to tune in. I'm like, Do you ever see this in yourself? Do you see this in your family life? Do you see this in your clinic setting? Especially because there are so many people who are really well intentioned but may be showing up in a rescuer position?


    00:14:46:01 - 00:14:53:05

    Speaker 1

    And like, I think that's like a real hook. I think sometimes that I've noticed in terms of perpetuating this. But yeah, go ahead.


    00:14:53:07 - 00:15:16:17

    Speaker 2

    I see them in my field therapist coaches health care. It's like we're all vulnerable to stepping into a rescuer role. Yes. I think the reason why it'll be helpful to for people to think about these roles in terms of their family, in their individual life is we're more susceptible to stepping into this in the workplace. Yes, we've had experience with it earlier in life.


    00:15:16:21 - 00:15:41:10

    Speaker 2

    yeah, right. So if I was in that place in my family where I would have gone, my God, it's all my fault. I would be more vulnerable than to doing that. And the same thing in the workplace. Right. Okay. So the victim let's talk about what that is. And this could be personal and professional life. People in this role, they feel helpless, They feel oppressed, they feel victimized often.


    00:15:41:10 - 00:16:06:06

    Speaker 2

    They feel in a sense in the situation. And and not to say they're not, but that is a feeling of like I'm just sitting here and I'm being victimized and I need somebody to save me is another important claim because we can experience really awful things in our life and just truth. But there's the piece of the victim is I am powerless and there is nothing I can do about it.


    00:16:06:11 - 00:16:35:24

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. And I need somebody outside of me to help me. I'm almost like a child. Right? Where is Mom and Dad? I need mom and dad to help me because I'm a powerless child. Okay, then going on to the persecutor. The people in this role often have a critical blaming stance. It is a finger pointing, a you. It can be bullying, it can be aggressive or oppressive.


    00:16:36:01 - 00:17:04:09

    Speaker 2

    This person is often seen as the bad guy and hurting others. You know, in my example, you can see sometimes in my my family example, sometimes the person who's actually the most assertive as we get healthier can be seen as a persecutor. Other times it's a person who's actually behaving badly and really throwing their feelings on to somebody else or bullying misbehavior.


    00:17:04:09 - 00:17:05:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, yeah.


    00:17:05:22 - 00:17:26:12

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. So that's a little bit nuanced and I'm glad you brought that example because there's actual situations where people are being victimized, their actual situations where people are hurting each other. But then the nuance of what we're talking about is like is like this kind of belief system of like, you know, like you could be just be you could just be very plain and assertive, like talking, for example, just like tying it back to like nurse practitioner stuff.


    00:17:26:12 - 00:17:39:07

    Speaker 1

    If you're just like, Hey, this person's on my schedule and they shouldn't be there. That's just being plain and talking plainly. But somebody could receive it as like, Wow, like she's just like really being aggressive or something like that.


    00:17:39:08 - 00:17:50:23

    Speaker 2

    That's right. That's right. There is perception here. I just had like five thoughts come in. I was say again. Then you said like two sentences ago. Do you remember what you were saying just a little bit ago? There's something I wanted to comment on.


    00:17:51:02 - 00:17:56:23

    Speaker 1

    Like the example of like there are people who are actually being like, if you give a situation of victimization.


    00:17:56:23 - 00:18:19:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, I wanted to speak to. Yeah, I think that's a really important. There are places where we have been victimized. I think most commonly though, it's when we're children. So the thing is, if we look in family dynamics, yeah, often there are victims in a dysfunctional or abusive thing. The victims are children. Yeah, because they were powerless. Yeah.


    00:18:19:22 - 00:18:43:06

    Speaker 2

    They couldn't say no. They couldn't get in their car and drive away and say, I'm done with this. So oftentimes, how this dynamic is formed is that people have the the victim dynamic is formed is that we may have an experience of being victimized and maybe we haven't gotten to do some healing work around that. So there's a part of us that's like, I'm still powerless.


    00:18:43:07 - 00:18:55:21

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Now, are there settings in the world where people are still being adults, are still being victimized? Yes, totally. And for most of us, we are not powerless now AS Yeah.


    00:18:55:23 - 00:19:18:24

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, yeah. So there's that. So yeah, it's just I think about the nuanced pieces because part of this is some of this is novel for people, especially the context of talking about like, you know, medical education and becoming a nurse practitioner. I think it's a pretty novel conversation, but I feel like it's also just so incredibly important when we think about the reasons for compassion fatigue, for burnout, for leaving the profession.


    00:19:18:24 - 00:19:25:00

    Speaker 1

    Like, yeah, so I think yeah. So hopefully that people can keep in mind that this is a pretty nuanced conversation. And it is.


    00:19:25:00 - 00:19:53:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, continue. That's right. This is really complex. I'm so glad you brought that up. And something I was going to say later that I'll say now is oftentimes we have to unpack this in therapy. Yeah. Because it it is it's nuanced. It's complex. Oftentimes it runs really deep. Yeah. Speaking of compassion fatigue, burnout, I do think that often goes with those of us who tend to step into the rescuer role.


    00:19:53:22 - 00:20:17:24

    Speaker 2

    Right. And so people in this role tend to feel like they need to fix or save a perceived victim. Yeah, and it may many times it may be someone who in their family growing up, they saw somebody mistreated and they felt some somehow in the role of being like the together one, the one that could speak up for the person being victimized.


    00:20:18:05 - 00:20:44:04

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. They often, as you said earlier, do this with good intentions. But unfortunately, by treating somebody like a victim, we can often perpetuate this sense of helplessness. You're right. You are powerless. You need me to come in and save you, However, in this culture and are quite dysfunctional, at least. Speaking of American culture, we tend to see the rescuer as the good guy.


    00:20:44:04 - 00:21:06:10

    Speaker 2

    Rescuers are often esteemed. Yeah, and I think in health care, people who can be selfless, who can be like, don't worry about my needs, I'm going to show up here. It really is a beautiful thing, right? Because we get to serve. Yeah. And that's where we and our own needs and our humanity goes out the window. I mean, of course we're going to burn out.


    00:21:06:12 - 00:21:23:15

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, yeah. And I and I just wanted to highlight to what you said about the, like I think a big piece of that comes down to agency. Maybe that's part of the nuance is that like when we come in as somebody who's like a rescuer who is like trying to help somebody who is oppressed or victimized, it's like everybody has agency right there.


    00:21:23:15 - 00:21:46:15

    Speaker 1

    Again, the nuance situations, right, where there is not agency. But what we're talking about is largely this applies. I'm all zoom it back out later on. But like largely this applies to a situation of like just remembering that we have agency, our coworkers have agency, our family members have agency. Right. And like, right, like we're not when you're coming in to rescue somebody, it's assuming that they don't have what it takes to take care of themselves.


    00:21:46:15 - 00:21:50:20

    Speaker 1

    And again, nuance, some people don't. But what we're talking about is really adults that do.


    00:21:50:22 - 00:22:04:24

    Speaker 2

    Correct? That's right. I wear my head just fine. As I'm curious, are any of the mirror, your listeners and watchers, people who might be in a hospital setting where there's patients who truly are out of commission or helpless or.


    00:22:04:24 - 00:22:17:22

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, I think for the most part people are primary care providers. There are some people who are in the emergency department or who are also in the hospital, but for the most part I think it's primary care. But yeah, there are some situations where we're taking care of people that don't have agency.


    00:22:17:24 - 00:22:23:09

    Speaker 2

    Okay, so there might be a bit of nuance there as well. Yeah, totally.


    00:22:23:11 - 00:22:39:09

    Speaker 1

    But yeah, so we covered the general idea of like what the drama triangle is. It's like this kind of pattern of participation of roles, these like kind of superficial roles that don't really look at the full humanity of the person and the full agency, and that if we don't, we're not aware of it. We can kind of keep kind of going in circles.


    00:22:39:09 - 00:22:46:17

    Speaker 1

    And I wish I wish I had better examples from like I've had so many conversations with people in their in their work and interpersonal relationships where this has shown up.


    00:22:46:17 - 00:22:48:15

    Speaker 2

    But I don't.


    00:22:48:15 - 00:22:51:07

    Speaker 1

    Know where do you want to take the conversation from here?


    00:22:51:09 - 00:22:59:16

    Speaker 2

    Well, actually, I had a couple notes on the impact of it, and we're just going to that. So I want to name this a little bit like, why does this matter?


    00:22:59:16 - 00:23:05:05

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, why does this matter? Why why are you so passionate about it? Yeah, because I know that this is something that's really important to you.


    00:23:05:07 - 00:23:16:21

    Speaker 2

    It is important to me. And in part because it just comes up with. Yeah, I don't know, 80% of my clients, I see it all over the place. Like I said, I've seen it in my own life.


    00:23:16:23 - 00:23:18:17

    Speaker 1

    We work together. Just full disclosure.


    00:23:18:19 - 00:23:19:23

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Yeah.


    00:23:20:04 - 00:23:22:15

    Speaker 1

    I've worked through it a lot in the last two years.


    00:23:22:17 - 00:23:45:24

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, it's so, so prevalent. So one thing I jot in my notes here is everybody loses in this triangle. So we might think that somebody in the rescuer role is like, Well, that's the good one to be in. At least I've got agency. Yeah, at least I'm the good guy. But here's the thing that comes up with a lot of health care providers.


    00:23:46:01 - 00:24:08:11

    Speaker 2

    Well, actually, what happens when we're in the rescuer role, we lose ourselves. Yeah, we lose ourselves. So many of us are over focused on the victim. And so then somebody comes up and goes, How are you doing? What are your needs? How are your feelings? And if you're in the rescuer role, you might be like, I'm fine. Yeah.


    00:24:08:12 - 00:24:30:07

    Speaker 2

    And actually be totally out of touch with your feelings or I don't actually know how I am or I do know I'm not really okay or I'm having needs, but it's fine. I'll put that on the back burner. And so essentially it's a statement to of self abandonment. It's a statement of I don't really matter. That's also disempowering.


    00:24:30:11 - 00:25:00:02

    Speaker 2

    You know, everybody loses in the cycle and there's no way out of this cycle. There is no way to go. Well, if I if I fight hard enough as the rescuer eventually will get out of the cycle, the cycle actually traps us. And I think that's really important for people to hear. Yeah. That it's not like, well, just keep trying harder to save this person and then you'll be done you know it self-perpetuating weaker if that's not clear why I could talk about that it creates a culture.


    00:25:00:02 - 00:25:10:14

    Speaker 2

    If we go to workplace, it creates a culture of blame and division. Yeah, it creates a culture actually, of victimization and bullying, basically.


    00:25:10:19 - 00:25:14:23

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, I actually I have I do have an example whenever you want to jump in with that.


    00:25:14:23 - 00:25:17:13

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, there's a little.


    00:25:17:13 - 00:25:36:22

    Speaker 1

    Bit of a vulnerable share, but I'll try to keep the macro details. But pretty much and the reason I share it, so this is my part of my story and that's the reason I share this is because it's not only me that's had this happen. I just feel like I hear it all the time. And so pretty much I went into this clinic setting when I was a brand new nurse practitioner and there was a lot of dysfunction.


    00:25:36:23 - 00:25:54:19

    Speaker 1

    There was like too much work to do, not enough people to do it. And it was kind of this like underlying like we show up for work, we do, we do the things we just we all go above and beyond. And that was the expectation, right? It was a kind of this like encouragement of not taking care of ourselves and not having boundaries and things like that.


    00:25:54:19 - 00:26:22:00

    Speaker 1

    And I think there was a there was some there are some frustration that I had. And I came in and I was and I'm so much about optimization and how to improve things and leadership and stuff like that. And so what I noticed that there were some things that were not functional and I took it upon myself to try going above and beyond, try to make some improvements to processes of how we trained our medical assistance, how we were, you know, functioning in our electronic health record system to make it more efficient in the clinic setting.


    00:26:22:02 - 00:26:36:13

    Speaker 1

    And I was kind of just stepping outside of my role, which was to be a nurse practitioner, to see patients, to be on a team, to communicate with my leadership. And I kind of stepped out of that a little bit, being like, I can help, I have resources, I have vision, like I can talk like we all have to go above and beyond anyway, right?


    00:26:36:15 - 00:27:06:01

    Speaker 1

    And what ended up happening is I think that there was this culture. It wasn't just me, but I think the whole culture was kind of just like there was this friction between, you know, who is in leadership, who is doing doing the work on the ground, and then like, you know, trying to stick up for and be an advocate for the people who are having a hard time, which like meaning like the other staff members, like the front desk, the medical systems, the nurses, like the other nurse practitioners, the other providers, things like that got me a little bit of trouble because I was stepping outside my boundaries there.


    00:27:06:03 - 00:27:26:02

    Speaker 1

    But I think I ended up leaving that job and I think seeing in hindsight that I participated in a lot of dysfunction, I think I don't know if that's like a helpful example, but I guess the thing that I hear over and over again is that people come in as a brand new nurse practitioner, coming from an expert role, as a nurse, as a nurse before, and being a brand new grad and being like, whoa, I don't know what I'm doing.


    00:27:26:04 - 00:27:48:03

    Speaker 1

    And they want to bring that level of leadership and passion and drive and making things better. And they're coming from this really well-intentioned place as I was, where it was like, I'm going to rescue, you know, my coworkers, I'm going to rescue the clinic, I'm going to make the morale better here. And it was like I was relating to myself as kind of like taking on that responsibility that I had that agency to do that.


    00:27:48:05 - 00:28:00:16

    Speaker 1

    And then I think the other pieces I was relating to the leadership as, you know, this kind of like they don't care, they're bullies. And then the people that I worked with have like they can't help themselves, Like I have to help them cause I'm in this leadership role.


    00:28:00:18 - 00:28:01:08

    Speaker 2

    And even that.


    00:28:01:08 - 00:28:04:00

    Speaker 1

    Was so messy. And this is like,


    00:28:04:02 - 00:28:05:04

    Speaker 2

    A lot of people.


    00:28:05:06 - 00:28:08:02

    Speaker 1

    Share the same thing. And I'm like, Well, you have to cool it like less.


    00:28:08:03 - 00:28:27:22

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, I think it's the most natural thing, actually. This is this happens all over the place. And what I'm hearing, interestingly, is not only you were coming in with some rescuer energy, not only were you seeing your coworkers as a bit of victim clinic, Yes, I was the victim. And I guess that's fascinating that we can see whatever we want to call that.


    00:28:27:22 - 00:28:28:08

    Speaker 2

    In Oregon.


    00:28:28:08 - 00:28:32:09

    Speaker 1

    The clinic is failing because we don't like because of all of these things that need to be.


    00:28:32:11 - 00:28:41:24

    Speaker 2

    Learned. Yeah, And I think so in a way, it's like, who's running the clinic? Well, these people in charge. So them, they become the persecutor. Yeah. Your and I was you the clinic.


    00:28:41:24 - 00:28:52:00

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. And I think that what ended up happening with the quote unquote trouble, I don't want to get into the details, but I think that I was being seen as as a persecutor because I was stirring things up. And so I think.


    00:28:52:02 - 00:28:52:22

    Speaker 2

    Like.


    00:28:52:24 - 00:28:55:20

    Speaker 1

    Like I was a bully and like the the troublemaker, you know.


    00:28:56:01 - 00:29:03:06

    Speaker 2

    Less or less point that out. So you came in with some rescuer energy, not to say there wasn't already drama triangle going on 100%.


    00:29:03:08 - 00:29:04:10

    Speaker 1

    there totally was 100.


    00:29:04:11 - 00:29:30:18

    Speaker 2

    But you came in with the rest. Your energy saw the clinic or coworkers about in the victim role and which naturally made the leadership the persecutors. Yeah. So then their drama triangle kicks in and they go, How dare you make me seem like the persecutor? You're the persecutor. Yeah, right. So it got flipped around. Now I also want a name like other pieces that sometimes we come in.


    00:29:30:18 - 00:29:57:01

    Speaker 2

    You probably came in with natural gifts, as you're saying, like leadership or vision. I mean, knowing you, I know you have got a lot of vision. So there and we'll talk about this. There's ways to be empowered and not a rescuer. You may have been coming in with some really useful things for the clinic. And because of insecurity in leadership and feeling threatened, you know, that's more dysfunctional crap.


    00:29:57:01 - 00:30:20:20

    Speaker 2

    That's different than the drama triangle. But it's like then, well, I guess we could tie it. End of. Yes. Seeing you as the persecutor feeling threatened. And then rather than taking self responsibility of going, why do I feel threatened? What am I scared of here? Wow, how amazing that this new hire is actually wanting to bring value to our organization rather than doing that.


    00:30:20:20 - 00:30:27:12

    Speaker 2

    They just threw this, you know, slime on to you of going, Well, you're the persecutor. Yeah.


    00:30:27:12 - 00:30:45:21

    Speaker 1

    And I guess I think that I think having an example like a like a more just more and more concrete example is I think can be helpful because I think that for me just personally speaking like when you're like so I learned about this concept from you through the course that you had have I think I still have, but this is a couple of years ago and I was like, it just like blew my mind.


    00:30:45:21 - 00:30:48:06

    Speaker 1

    And I think that being in that place.


    00:30:48:08 - 00:30:48:21

    Speaker 2

    Before.


    00:30:48:21 - 00:31:09:16

    Speaker 1

    Of just seeing it, I think my one of my thoughts was like, well, how do you get out of that? Like, what do you deal? What do you do to deal with that? Because it's like, at least in my other anecdote, like other personal experience, this has shown up not just in the workplace setting, but in other personal life settings where, like I've shown up and I've noticed that I'm in a drama triangle, which you are familiar with, right?


    00:31:09:18 - 00:31:31:03

    Speaker 1

    Like without giving concrete examples or it's like I kind of like set a boundary and it was like I was immediately seen as a villain and that person has chosen not to see, like to see me forever as a villain. And I felt like I had a lost relationship because this person was still so bought into the victim villain.


    00:31:31:05 - 00:31:47:14

    Speaker 1

    Rescuer Yeah, a victim villain hero situation. So like, yeah, like how, how does one like break out of that, whether it's workplace setting or like, what are the next steps? So once you recognize like, wow, I think I'm participating in this great question.


    00:31:47:14 - 00:32:12:18

    Speaker 2

    There's so much to it and I'm just trying to think of where I want to start. One thing is to just go in knowing that this is hefty, as in it's not a quick fix. And I think going in sober minded of knowing a lot of times others don't want to switch, they don't want to shift. So my mom and my sister stayed in their roles for a very long time.


    00:32:12:20 - 00:32:38:12

    Speaker 2

    One of them shifted out of it, but it's like that's not a given. So I think that's just important to know that we can only influence ourselves here and that in this environment, people may continue to see us through that lens. And that's really hard. Like they may continue seeing us as a prosecutor. So just want to name that and not put pressure on yourself to be like, Well, now I have to shift the silent shift, this whole dynamic.


    00:32:38:17 - 00:33:04:12

    Speaker 2

    yeah. So going to what we can do. The first thing is awareness, and that's what we're doing on this podcast is like just even bringing this to our awareness in that example with my family that are where I immediately when my friend told me about that, I immediately was just like I had this huge relief and the shame started to go away because I realized, this isn't mine to carry, this isn't appropriate.


    00:33:04:14 - 00:33:28:07

    Speaker 2

    So don't underestimate the power of starting to see totally. I would say that first off, just looking around and going, am I? Whether by my own hand or someone else's view being put into a role, one of those three roles where other people in this are just starting to look at that name? I really I feel like that's 80% of it.


    00:33:28:07 - 00:33:57:15

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, I really, truly, truly. Then I think starting to ask ourselves, is there a chance, like, is there a chance I'm committed to a certain role so that person seeing me as a persecutor, is there any chance I at some level am feeling like a victim or I'm seeing myself as a rescuer or the hero? Because if we do, there's some really big work there to do.


    00:33:57:15 - 00:34:17:07

    Speaker 2

    So for example, maybe I go, Yeah, there's I feel like I'm being bullied and it takes me into kind of a little kid place and that's really familiar to me. It's a familiar feeling in my body, a familiar experience in my life. I feel kind of collapsed. I feel small. I don't know how to get out of this.


    00:34:17:07 - 00:34:43:13

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, I would share for somebody who had that awareness because that is actually really empowering. Once we realize that's there, we can start working with it. Yeah, yeah. Versus just blaming the other isn't going well. You're just in this drama triangle. We really want to start with ourselves. Yeah. Similarly. I am a little bit committed to being a rescuer.


    00:34:43:13 - 00:34:52:24

    Speaker 2

    I do feel like my coworkers aren't very empowered. I don't know if I really believe that they can help themselves.


    00:34:53:01 - 00:34:56:14

    Speaker 1

    I am patients that we're taking care of two or.


    00:34:56:15 - 00:35:21:09

    Speaker 2

    Okay. Or patients who are taking care of. And I think one thing I sometimes hear when people are in the rescuer position and they go, Well, what what's that person going to do? Well, you know, well who's going to help them either I will say, well, they're an adult. So actually, I wonder, this is their journey. So let's say it's a coworker.


    00:35:21:10 - 00:35:34:15

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Who is it being treated well or is having feelings about something? It's like, well, what are they going to do in their journey of becoming a healthy adult? They've got to navigate that. Yeah. And figure out what to do.


    00:35:34:16 - 00:35:55:11

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. And I think that's also hard too, because when people are participating and they don't, they're not aware of it. So like, for example, if I'm thinking about that coworker, if they're participating in it, they're going to see themselves as a victim and they're not going to see that they have that personal agency as an adult. And so for us, as the rescuer to be like, No, no, no, they're an agent adult, they have capacity.


    00:35:55:13 - 00:36:02:06

    Speaker 1

    They might not see that for themselves, in which case, like you might turn into the persecutor because you're not helping them.


    00:36:02:08 - 00:36:29:22

    Speaker 2

    All you need to. But yeah, yeah, it's so common. Yes. So like they see you as a persecutor and we might have to have the uncomfortable experience of going, Wow, that's really unhealthy. And they may live as a perceived victim for the next ten years or the rest of their life. Yeah, and can I sit with that? Can I like.


    00:36:29:22 - 00:36:32:12

    Speaker 2

    No, that's really hard.


    00:36:32:13 - 00:36:50:00

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, that's been the hardest part for me is like the awareness was like mind blowing for me. But then the actual work of stepping out of that, of just like letting, like, letting that be true of like, no, they're an adult. They get to, they get to make their own decisions, like not being able to control any perception they have about me or our relationship.


    00:36:50:00 - 00:36:52:08

    Speaker 1

    Like, it's really it is really hard.


    00:36:52:10 - 00:37:10:24

    Speaker 2

    It's really challenging. And that's where it goes to our personal growth work, where I get to go, okay, what's hard about this for me is that I start looking at what are those kind of unconscious, subconscious thoughts? Well, I mean, sometimes goes to if it's this is Jerry's childhood trauma underneath it. Well, they're going to die like really like they're not going to be okay.


    00:37:11:01 - 00:37:33:00

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Yeah. Fundamentally. Or well, then they're going to feel really unhappy. this is a big one. They're going to feel really miserable. They're going to continue to feel miserable. And then I'm going to have to feel their bad vibes every day when I go to work. So this is another huge, huge, huge one, especially for helpers who often are highly sensitive to.


    00:37:33:01 - 00:37:34:10

    Speaker 1

    Empathic ton of empathic.


    00:37:34:10 - 00:37:57:00

    Speaker 2

    People. So it's like sometimes we step into the rescue role because I'm like, I want this person to stop being a whiny baby. Come on, let's help you, like, get out early so I don't have to be around your misery every day, right? And then that's a whole other conversation. Well, why do I do that? Of this person is miserable and I'm feeling their energy.


    00:37:57:03 - 00:38:23:23

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, that's hard. Totally. Totally. I wanted to say one other thing about that. When people are in the rescuer role and I'm going, well, this person is an adult, they've got to figure that out. The other thing is if we actually are seeing someone being victimized, let's say a patient and something is happening that's still I mean, maybe we maybe we need to take legal action.


    00:38:23:23 - 00:38:49:11

    Speaker 2

    Maybe something needs to be reported. Yeah. And we can say, well, isn't that the rescuer role? If I'm if I'm reporting something on behalf of a coworker? Yeah, that's not right. I could support them maybe and saying, you know, this isn't okay, you might want to report this. Yeah. If it's on behalf of a patient and something I don't, again know all the protocols and how this works, but yeah, maybe we do need to report something, say something.


    00:38:49:11 - 00:38:58:14

    Speaker 2

    But again, you're probably still not going to be the person who's then going to be like a vigilante on behalf of this patient. Totally. Yeah.


    00:38:58:14 - 00:39:26:11

    Speaker 1

    And I think that I think that people who are clinicians like, have a fair enough sense of like, yeah, I think that's potentially part of the tricky part of this profession is that like there are people in legitimate like they don't have agency capacity and you need to care for them. But like, where do we pull back that line and recognize like even in some situations people still have agency, you know, as long as they're cognitively stable, as long as they, you know, have the physical accessibility, things like that.


    00:39:26:13 - 00:39:47:05

    Speaker 2

    I really love that. I feel like that's is so empowered what you're doing. In a way. I feel like you subtly saying to your audience, don't get sucked into the story, even when it looks like people are victims. Often there's some agency and even recognizing an ounce of agency may be a game changer. Totally. Totally. Love that.


    00:39:47:07 - 00:40:06:01

    Speaker 1

    Totally. It's so it's so fascinating, all of this stuff because it's like it's I've just learned so much in the in the role transition Pierce It's like it's just I don't know. It's just wild. And like, I think that it's it's so important to be talking about things like this because you just can't you can't stop a Band-Aid on compassion fatigue and burnout, right?


    00:40:06:01 - 00:40:22:17

    Speaker 1

    It's like you can't just do like another seminar about, you know, self-care practices, right? Not that those things aren't important, but I feel like just this deep stuff is like I just I love this topic because I feel like it's such an easy enough access point. You know, like you said, like it's like 80% of it is the understanding.


    00:40:22:17 - 00:40:37:22

    Speaker 1

    We do have to kind of like take those next steps of like, how do we step out of it and what care do we need and what, you know, maybe emotional support, therapy support do we need in our own life and but it's it's I think that just sharing with some of my friends in my personal life that our clinicians, they are just like mind blown.


    00:40:38:02 - 00:40:44:19

    Speaker 1

    And I think that it's really helped them just to recognize that piece of like, no, they they're they're adults. They're adults.


    00:40:44:21 - 00:40:58:14

    Speaker 2

    You know. Would you say in your experience, most people in your profession tend to fall into the rescuer hero role, or do you see them kind of flipping through all of them?


    00:40:58:17 - 00:41:08:22

    Speaker 1

    I think there's a flipping through all of them. I think that people tend to hang out any of the rescue are rescuer or victim. And then there's a lot of self-righteousness about who is the villain.


    00:41:08:24 - 00:41:10:04

    Speaker 2

    Who invites.


    00:41:10:07 - 00:41:36:16

    Speaker 1

    Right. But there's also people who are very much like, I have some experiences of previous work place settings where in my career far where there's somebody who is who is, you know, deemed me as a villain. And I feel wherever I'm going to be a villain like ten years later, connecting with somebody or like hearing about a situation from my former workplace setting and the way that like there's yeah, it's like, okay.


    00:41:36:21 - 00:41:39:21

    Speaker 1

    Okay. So they're still holding a grudge against me ten years later.


    00:41:39:21 - 00:41:40:22

    Speaker 2

    That's okay.


    00:41:40:24 - 00:41:50:21

    Speaker 1

    You know, because I feel much better about it because it's like it felt so bad at the time, you know? But at the same time, it's like I can see it for what it is and I take it a lot less personally.


    00:41:50:23 - 00:41:52:01

    Speaker 2

    Yeah.


    00:41:52:03 - 00:42:02:01

    Speaker 1

    no. I actually was just being an advocate, like a genuine advocate in that moment. And you saw me as a troublemaker and like, you're just going to hold that against and that's okay. You're going to be spiteful.


    00:42:02:03 - 00:42:25:00

    Speaker 2

    Because you're in health care. But people do things. You know how I know that's so big, what you just said of the like just even a little shift of this isn't personal can be so helpful. And also, naming is hard. I am not immune to hating when I'm seen as the villain. I hate it and I have to do so much work to go.


    00:42:25:02 - 00:42:48:09

    Speaker 2

    I can allow it. I can tolerate that without needing to get involved and change that perception totally. Do you think it might be helpful to speak briefly about, okay, once we're aware, there's a drama triangle here I am. I committed to a certain position. If I realize I'm in a certain position, would it be helpful to talk about with each one how to get out of it?


    00:42:48:09 - 00:43:00:15

    Speaker 2

    Yes, definitely so. And I actually think a precursor question is, would I like to get out of this role? Again, something that sounds but it's important.


    00:43:00:15 - 00:43:16:05

    Speaker 1

    To be honest. I think that's the subtle question that people like. I wouldn't ask myself, right, Like before we started talking about this type of stuff. Yeah it gets comfortable. It's totally cozy and comfortable because it's based on a lot of historical stuff, probably. And you are comfortable in that role.


    00:43:16:07 - 00:43:21:04

    Speaker 2

    That's right. There is this concept in psychology called secondary gain.


    00:43:21:06 - 00:43:27:18

    Speaker 1

    Yes, you are getting out of it and another terminology, but like what are you getting out of it? Basically you get it's getting you something.


    00:43:27:18 - 00:43:45:22

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Yeah. It's the idea that none of us do anything without reason. Yes. And that can be kind of shocking. Why in the world would I want to feel like a victim? Well, actually, you tell me honestly. Let's think about that. Do what would happen if you stepped out of the victim role. What might you be scared of?


    00:43:45:24 - 00:44:14:20

    Speaker 2

    So that's a thing for, I think, journaling is really great here. Just asking yourself that question, what would happen? What am I scared of? Yeah, would happen if I stepped out of this role. So that honestly could be a whole thing, right? That would be a close exploration. Yeah. And we'll talk a little bit about why, but let's just say you have the answer of yes, I want to get out of it.


    00:44:14:20 - 00:44:35:11

    Speaker 2

    I can see that this is not helping and this is hurting. That's ideally where we need to get to. Yeah. Or the gains are smaller than the reward. Yeah, definitely. Though if you recognize you've got a little bit of a victim place in yourself, first you want to notice where do you feel powerless? In what way are you feeling powerless?


    00:44:35:11 - 00:45:00:16

    Speaker 2

    That's your clue. That's actually what's holding it all together. I'm feeling powerless because I feel like I don't have a voice. Yeah, okay. And maybe there really is a leadership dynamic and there is a power dynamic. And still, how is this relevant? Where in my life have I ever had an authority figure before? Yeah, outside of work where I haven't felt like I had a voice.


    00:45:00:18 - 00:45:23:24

    Speaker 2

    yeah. My dad used to make me feel like I was silenced. Yeah. Okay. Like you said, how is this comfortable? How is this familiar? And even recognize is even starting to think. Do I have a right to say no? Do I theoretically think I deserve a voice? Yeah. If someone else was in my position when I told them that they were powerless.


    00:45:24:01 - 00:45:45:22

    Speaker 2

    So it's starting to build that personal agency, that personal self efficacy to go, What if I do have some power? Yeah, and even if I can point to five places, I don't have power. What if there is something. Yeah, that I can do? Yeah. So it's just starting there. Yeah, that makes sense. Definitely starting there.


    00:45:45:24 - 00:46:04:22

    Speaker 1

    Because I think there's like, like just a highlight. I think there are a lot of places, especially in like the work of primary care, especially like a lot of newer people encounter is just like there are limitations on, you know time and and the workload like there's that again time back into burnout There's this expectation of the amount of work that you can get done in a short amount of time.


    00:46:04:24 - 00:46:11:12

    Speaker 1

    And so there are there are definitely pieces that feel out of our control and that are that can be. But there are.


    00:46:11:12 - 00:46:16:17

    Speaker 2

    There's a reality and that perhaps where you going to say something? I want you to finish your thought.


    00:46:16:23 - 00:46:35:17

    Speaker 1

    Well, just like it just like just paying attention to like what is there. Because I think we get so sucked into that paradigm of like, my gosh, I have so many papers in my inbox that I need to review and sign. But it's like taking yourself almost like out of the context of the paperwork and it's like, let's think about just generally speaking, what our agency choices in life, right?


    00:46:35:17 - 00:46:37:15

    Speaker 1

    Like and not getting into the details, right?


    00:46:37:17 - 00:46:59:10

    Speaker 2

    That's right. Because really this is a perspective thing. Yes, that's right. So, okay, where do in my life I have some agency. Am I taking good care of myself or is this overwhelm causing me to throw away all the good self-care practices? Am I getting some movement and am I drinking enough water, allowing myself to have meals, stuff like that?


    00:46:59:10 - 00:47:21:11

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. How can I improve that right there can make you not feel like a victim. Yeah. Another thing I think is a great strategy is taking to if somebody has Abbas taken to a supervisor or manager Abbas and going, can you help me figure this out? Yeah, I'm feeling a dilemma. One of my favorite things is naming a dilemma.


    00:47:21:15 - 00:47:43:02

    Speaker 2

    I'm feeling a dilemma. I'm committed to my role. I really want to do a great job and I'm not able to get through all of this paperwork in one day. Can you help me brainstorm this? And I don't know, for some that might be like that is not an option. But even bringing collaboratively and going I'm I'm not sure how to do this.


    00:47:43:02 - 00:47:48:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Allows us to be an adult who's voicing our needs and going how can I what can I do? Yeah.


    00:47:48:24 - 00:47:51:11

    Speaker 1

    Deficit makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.


    00:47:51:13 - 00:48:01:08

    Speaker 2

    Okay, so let's go into the persecutor. It's a rare probably your audience is rarely.


    00:48:01:10 - 00:48:02:17

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, overtly.


    00:48:02:22 - 00:48:33:17

    Speaker 2

    Overtly a persecutor. Although I thought of something, you know, overtly aggressive, overtly bullying. But I think something we need to look at is gossip. Yeah, I think gossip can be a really passive aggressive way of being a persecutor. It's. It is damaging and it is, you know, taking somebody down a notch. And if they're a sensitive person, they're going to feel it but have nothing they can point to to go, What's happening here?


    00:48:33:19 - 00:48:50:07

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, it is aggressive, actually. And so I think if that is something for people to look at is how they're using gossip and are they kind of playing out some kind of power play in the gossip, Does that make sense? And that's a relevant.


    00:48:50:07 - 00:49:00:06

    Speaker 1

    Point, Totally irrelevant. I mean, there's some bullying, too. There actually is like overt bullying in some places. But yeah, I guess like I love to hear about the stepping out of that persecutor.


    00:49:00:08 - 00:49:00:18

    Speaker 2

    Role.


    00:49:00:18 - 00:49:11:02

    Speaker 1

    Because I think that when I give the examples of being the being the persecutor, quote unquote, is like I feel like I've been perceived as a persecutor, but I'm just doing an action that's actually appropriate.


    00:49:11:07 - 00:49:12:06

    Speaker 2

    Yeah.


    00:49:12:08 - 00:49:18:11

    Speaker 1

    So I don't know if you have anything to say about that, like being perceived as a persecutor versus you're actually doing things that's like bullying.


    00:49:18:13 - 00:49:49:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, let's talk about both. So if you are doing things that are like bullying or criticism being critical, I think it's important for you to notice that you're doing that and say, Why am I being so critical? Why am I blaming what am I doing here? How can I look at myself? What is my role in this? If there's no such thing as a persecutor and a victim and a rescuer, then I can't just stand on my high horse and be like, Well, I'm the only one right here.


    00:49:49:20 - 00:50:10:21

    Speaker 2

    What's my what part of my playing? How can I not be critical? How can I stop gossiping? So you're noticing my energy here? Yeah. Yeah. We're stuck in that persecutor role. We need to have some tough love with ourselves and be like, Yeah, this isn't okay. This isn't okay behavior. It's really not. So what am I going to what kind of limits am I going to start with myself?


    00:50:11:00 - 00:50:31:06

    Speaker 2

    So I'm not behaving in this way? Yeah, okay. And that could look like shifting from aggressive to assertive. Maybe we're so pissed and lashing out because we're really upset about something. Well, how about instead of blaming and attacking, how can I say this an assertive way, which is like, Hey, here's what I'm seeing. I want to bring it to our attention.


    00:50:31:06 - 00:50:55:10

    Speaker 2

    I want to talk about it. You know, there's ways to name things that aren't lashing out. Yeah, yeah. Going to the second piece of what if we're being perceived as a persecutor? This is hard, but I think to some degree we have to keep standing in our power and speaking our truth regardless. We just have to, in a way, learn.


    00:50:55:11 - 00:51:02:17

    Speaker 2

    It's hard to ignore it, but kind of like, Well, that's your perception. I'm still going to be assertive.


    00:51:02:19 - 00:51:04:18

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. And I think the things.


    00:51:04:20 - 00:51:04:23

    Speaker 2

    Though.


    00:51:05:01 - 00:51:27:18

    Speaker 1

    Reminds me of when you say that, it's like I think at least for and the reason I keep coming back to this is I think that for me that's been a big part of the stepping out of it is, is that I've gone from this like either rescue or a victim in this kind of classical health care type of setting to like just being okay with being perceived as as that because again, like, it wasn't the things I was actually doing.


    00:51:27:18 - 00:51:51:04

    Speaker 1

    But I think that that's hopefully helpful for people to hear that they may because it's so entrenched, they may be perceived as as as the persecutor. And I think that like, yeah, I think that there's a piece at least there was a piece for me I've got it never feels good, but I've gotten to a place of like I felt so bad when I first started stepping into that, like I'm not being in this triangle anymore.


    00:51:51:06 - 00:52:07:20

    Speaker 1

    I felt so bad that I was almost beating myself up about it. And I think that I was like, I am the villain. I am the worst. Like I did hurt them. So I think I, I think that was the piece when I first started stepping out of like I was still participating because somebody was kind of reflecting to me that I was the persecutor or the villain.


    00:52:07:20 - 00:52:27:10

    Speaker 1

    And I was like, Yeah, I really am selfish. I really am the worst like you. All of these stories, right? Versus like having that growth perspective. But like, I don't know, like, here's the reality. Here are the facts. This is just a piece, again, taking responsibility. Not that I'm trying to shirk responsibility for actions or anything, but I think that can be a really tricky place of stepping out of it.


    00:52:27:12 - 00:52:50:04

    Speaker 2

    And I think kind of like when I reached out to my friend, sometimes we need somebody outside of the environment to blast know that it's not bullying on your behalf. That's what a weird reaction that they had, you know, and not as somebody then stepping in as our rescuer, like, I can't believe it was more totally like, can you do me a reality check here?


    00:52:50:04 - 00:52:51:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Yeah. It's very.


    00:52:51:22 - 00:53:02:16

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. Because like the crazy making piece like you were talking about, it's like when you're in the middle of it, you're like, wow. Like, did I do something horrible? Or like, they did they do something horrible, right? Like getting those reality checks is really helpful.


    00:53:02:21 - 00:53:30:24

    Speaker 2

    That's right. Stepping out of the confusion. So lastly, going to the rescuer. This is a big one. And I think for a lot of us, this is a lifelong one. So let's say I recognize this isn't helpful for me or for anybody. So first of all, noticing who maybe triggers me into the girl who maybe is in a vibe of victimization.


    00:53:31:04 - 00:53:31:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah.


    00:53:31:22 - 00:53:40:23

    Speaker 1

    Who is committed, especially committed to their victim role. Like, I think that's the stickiest part for me is that like, they're really bad in that they don't have any agency and then I get sucked right in.


    00:53:40:23 - 00:54:01:20

    Speaker 2

    That's right. That's right. That's right. So noticing that, that's the trigger and the like, what is the point that I get sucked in? Is it when they start crying, is it when they say something in a certain tone of voice? Is that when I see them looking so beaten down, what is it That sucks, man. So what's the what's the cue then?


    00:54:01:20 - 00:54:21:01

    Speaker 2

    Going back to what you and I were talking about earlier, the agency reminding ourselves they're an adult and they're on their own journey of self-discovery. So and being treated as powerless or incompetent isn't actually helping them grow.


    00:54:21:01 - 00:54:24:04

    Speaker 1

    Know you're depriving them the opportunity to grow.


    00:54:24:06 - 00:54:27:02

    Speaker 2

    That's right. Okay. Say that again.


    00:54:27:04 - 00:54:43:04

    Speaker 1

    Just. It is like I have to say this to myself to remind myself, but it's like we are depriving them of their opportunity to grow and have agency and even though they may not want that opportunity, they might think that that's a terrible idea. Like we don't get to choose that they're the only.


    00:54:43:05 - 00:54:56:15

    Speaker 2

    People that and if we're stepping in to the rest the role, it could even prevent them from ever getting to that point. I'm going I'm going to choose agency. Yeah. Yeah.


    00:54:56:19 - 00:55:06:12

    Speaker 1

    And we don't get to control that either, right? Like I say, we don't get to control if they ever choose that. But like, that's just, that's, those are just boundaries. Those are just individual boundaries.


    00:55:06:12 - 00:55:09:11

    Speaker 2

    That's what we get. Sorry, I'm so excited.


    00:55:09:11 - 00:55:10:24

    Speaker 1

    You know. Go ahead, jump into it.


    00:55:11:01 - 00:55:28:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. What we get to decide is, do I want to be complicit or not in blocking their journey? I may not be blocking it because like you said, they may never choose to do anything else. Yeah, but do I want to be potentially complicit in actually their lack of growth, which is quite confronting?


    00:55:28:22 - 00:55:40:02

    Speaker 1

    Definitely. And I don't think that anybody who's going into this rescue role inadvertently actually wants that. And so I think that's like a really helpful reminder of like, no, if we actually want to help people, we can't do that.


    00:55:40:07 - 00:56:00:15

    Speaker 2

    That's right. That's right. And we shift into more of a coach or more of a leader ourselves shifting into how can I be assertive in my own life for me, how can I support others in going, You've got this. Yeah, I says, are you okay? I'm is this are you. You got this? Yeah. What are you going to do?


    00:56:00:15 - 00:56:04:11

    Speaker 2

    What are you thinking of doing? It's shifting into a totally different vibe with ourselves.


    00:56:04:11 - 00:56:22:08

    Speaker 1

    Totally. And I think that, like, at least some reassurance for me is that, like, I when I can focus on myself, I can be a model for people. I don't have control over whether or not they see it that way. But I think that it does have an impact on people, especially if we're talking about whether it's your workplace setting or an interpersonal, you know, family thing.


    00:56:22:10 - 00:56:39:04

    Speaker 1

    The way we show up impacts the way that other people show up, and maybe they will get curious about how things have shifted and wanting to, you know, like we don't know what's going to happen, but it can have a really positive impact. I'm actually going to be doing an interview with somebody about people pleasing and boundaries. Do you know Hayley Paige McGee, by any chance?


    00:56:39:06 - 00:56:49:13

    Speaker 1

    She's amazing. Okay, He's amazing. But what we were talking about, we haven't had the conversation yet, but I think this applies here too, is that so often I think we see the negatives.


    00:56:49:15 - 00:56:49:23

    Speaker 2

    As.


    00:56:49:23 - 00:57:00:16

    Speaker 1

    Can we see the positives in here of like, not like what are all the ways that this actually can help people, even if we don't control it, Like we can still potentially help people just by the showing up.


    00:57:00:18 - 00:57:08:10

    Speaker 2

    It's kind of that saying like be the change you want to see in the world, just be that change and you don't know who will be touched by that.


    00:57:08:11 - 00:57:21:16

    Speaker 1

    Totally. Totally. My gosh, this is so fun. I want to be mindful of time. Thank you so much. Are there any other things that you want to kind of like parting words or pearls of wisdom or anything like that? Any last parting thoughts?


    00:57:21:18 - 00:57:47:03

    Speaker 2

    Yeah I think for her, anybody who's hearing this for the first time, if you're having any overwhelm, just know that would make total sense. It's kind of a lot. You know, it can be exciting, but at first it can be like, my gosh, suddenly I'm seeing a million relationships through this lens. You just want to say, give yourself some time to just kind of breathe whatever feelings are coming out, maybe take a break from it to just reregulate, come back to it.


    00:57:47:03 - 00:58:06:24

    Speaker 2

    If you I actually didn't realize this till prepping for this interview is there's a book called The Drama Triangle by Stephen Harper, a man with a K. He he's the one who coined this term. And so that's one thing you could look up. I think you could just do a lot of self inquiry and journaling that can get you so far.


    00:58:07:05 - 00:58:19:21

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. And then if you feel like I was saying earlier, like, gosh, this is just a really stark point for me. And it goes deep and I, I can't seem to get out of it. Then it might be a time to look into some therapy. Totally, totally. Yeah.


    00:58:19:21 - 00:58:38:02

    Speaker 1

    And I and I feel like that's part of like, I've so seen that how deep it runs. I think that like a starting place. I think one of the reasons I want to keep bring it back to the workplace is that I think that it can feel a little bit more accessible sometimes of like just dipping our toes and I'm like, I don't really I don't really care if I switch jobs, that's fine, you know?


    00:58:38:04 - 00:58:47:20

    Speaker 1

    But yeah, I just really appreciate that point of like if it is coming because I know we have a lot of sensitive people in the real world and community, so it's important to remember that it can bring up a lot of stuff.


    00:58:47:22 - 00:58:58:13

    Speaker 2

    And, and not being afraid if you have the option to switch jobs. Sometimes when we step out of the rescuer, the whole drama triangle, it's like, I don't want to be here, right?


    00:58:58:15 - 00:59:16:08

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, yeah. Like there's a big this is too. That's what happened to me. It was too entrenched in the drama triangle. I didn't have the words at the time, but on reflection it's like, no, I needed to get out of that place. And and I think it's different now. I think things change or whatever. But yeah, where can people learn more from you or follow along with you?


    00:59:16:08 - 00:59:36:08

    Speaker 2

    Or they can go, thank you, they can go to Intuitive Warrior way dot com and I've got some free tools there. I talk a lot about highly sensitive people, which is really biggest passion. But tying into that is all of this stuff that we tend to deal with. So I'd love to connect with you if, if this spoke to you.


    00:59:36:13 - 00:59:39:21

    Speaker 1

    Amazing. And do you still have your course the liberated HSP?


    00:59:39:23 - 00:59:41:05

    Speaker 2

    I do, yeah.


    00:59:41:07 - 00:59:44:23

    Speaker 1

    So there's asynchronous learning resources too, if people want to learn more.


    00:59:45:00 - 00:59:49:14

    Speaker 2

    So that's correct. The liberated HSP is really a lot about this stuff.


    00:59:49:18 - 00:59:51:12

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, I think that's why I learned about it originally.


    00:59:51:12 - 00:59:55:09

    Speaker 2

    So yeah, that out there. Cool. Thanks so much.


    00:59:55:11 - 00:59:57:13

    Speaker 1

    Thank you. I really appreciate it.


    00:59:57:15 - 00:59:59:05

    Speaker 2

    Thanks for having me, Liz.


    00:00:00:00 - 00:00:11:04

    Speaker 1

    Definitely. And I don't think that anybody who's going into this rescue role inadvertently actually wants that. And so I think that's like a really helpful reminder of like, no, if we actually want to help people, we can't do that.


    00:00:11:09 - 00:00:31:17

    Speaker 2

    That's right. That's right. And we shift into more of a coach or more of a leader ourselves, shifting into how can I be assertive in my own life for me, how can I support others in going, You've got this. Yeah, I says, are you okay? I'm is this are you got this? Yeah. What are you going to do?


    00:00:31:17 - 00:00:36:16

    Speaker 2

    What are you thinking of doing? It's shifting into a totally different vibe with ourselves. Totally. Well, hey.


    00:00:36:16 - 00:00:58:07

    Speaker 1

    There. It's Liz Rohr from Real World, and here. And you are watching the Real World MP YouTube channel. We make weekly episodes to help save you time, frustration and help you take the best care of your patients. In this episode, I have a guest. Her name is Brooke Nielsen. So we are going to be talking. I'm going to read her bio in a second.


    00:00:58:07 - 00:01:25:17

    Speaker 1

    But what we're talking about on this episode is this concept called drama triangle. And that may sound like, what does that have to do with me? Why are we talking about this On the Nurse Practitioner Continuing Education podcast, That YouTube episode, I just have to tell you, this was so revolutionary for me in terms of understanding how I show up in my role as a nurse practitioner, especially in the, you know, both in my personal life, but especially in the workplace setting.


    00:01:25:19 - 00:01:50:19

    Speaker 1

    I think that what I've noticed over the years with real world MP is that there's a lot of dysfunction when it comes to clinical settings and when we can recognize some of the pieces of how it's working, it can help us show up better as the clinician, as the leader that we are. So at the beginning of this episode, I kind of lay some context about why this is important and we start getting into what that concept means.


    00:01:50:21 - 00:02:14:21

    Speaker 1

    I promise to stick around with us if it seems a little bit outside of, you know, clinical continuing education, like it is a little bit novel. And every single person who's a clinician that I've talked to about the concept of drama triangle, how it shows up, what it means and how it affects our work life, especially in dysfunctional settings, has been like, whoa, like, just like this is like, I can't believe this, right?


    00:02:14:21 - 00:02:27:05

    Speaker 1

    So I think this is an extremely important episode to help you understand how to navigate dysfunctional clinic settings, but also like how to navigate your role as a leader. And I actually give a.


    00:02:27:05 - 00:02:28:19

    Speaker 2

    Little bit of some and as.


    00:02:28:21 - 00:02:49:10

    Speaker 1

    Well embarrassing stories, but it's something I'm not like super thrilled about in terms of like mistakes that I've made as a nurse practitioner, as a brand new grad. So if you are nosy like I am and want to hear a little bit about that story, I share that as one of the context of how drama Triangle shows up and how I was participating in the drama triangle and how it led to some not great stuff.


    00:02:49:10 - 00:03:13:03

    Speaker 1

    So but yeah, so Brooke Nielsen is she's a licensed therapist, coach, writer, pronouns are she her excuse me and speaker who lives near the mountains of Boulder, Colorado. She's the founder of the therapeutic center for highly sensitive People, as well as Intuitive Warrior, which is a coaching company for sensitive creatives, entrepreneurs and helpers. She has advanced training in trauma therapy, relationships and sensitivity.


    00:03:13:05 - 00:03:33:07

    Speaker 1

    Brooke has spent almost two decades helping thousands of finely tuned people find freedom from anxiety and build trust with their sensitive selves. So she is a therapist and coach, specifically working with empaths, empathic people, and highly sensitive people, which I identify as We can talk about more about that and have her back. If you want to hear more about what a highly sensitive person is.


    00:03:33:09 - 00:03:54:01

    Speaker 1

    But yeah, I hope that you enjoy this episode. Just give it a listen. Throw in your headphones or put it on in the car when you're on your way to a clinic. And yeah, I just I think you're really going to appreciate really, and appreciate it. this is so fun. I'm so excited. I mean, I say that about every podcast, episode and YouTube episode, but I really am.


    00:03:54:03 - 00:04:11:22

    Speaker 1

    So we're going to talk about drama triangles, but I'm going to lay some context for people. So the goal and I'm just going to read some some stuff that I shared with you. So the goal of Real World and P, we really want to support the transition of practice for new grads because when you leave grad school, they feel really overwhelmed, unprepared.


    00:04:11:22 - 00:04:40:23

    Speaker 1

    They don't feel competent. But we're here to really support them over the transition over the next three years, which is about the time it takes for them to feel competent and like clinical practice. And one of the things that I'm noting as I've done the podcast and the YouTube channel, I've talked so much about clinical topics, but the role transition piece is such a big part that's not really spoken about until people get into the clinical practice space where they're put in a leadership position, not necessarily that they have the direct reports or that they have to, you know, give evaluations to or anything like that.


    00:04:40:23 - 00:04:58:21

    Speaker 1

    But it's this kind of like influence without authority type of leadership position. And and so I've been making a lot of episodes recently that are more specifically related to that kind of personal development piece of that inner leadership, that inner work that we need to do if we're going to be effective leaders and confident in ourselves when we're in that role.


    00:04:58:22 - 00:05:02:12

    Speaker 1

    So yeah, so one of the things that came up that's come up a lot.


    00:05:02:14 - 00:05:03:18

    Speaker 2

    And I can remember.


    00:05:03:20 - 00:05:21:01

    Speaker 1

    How I just it occurred to me that to ask you to come on the, on the channel and on the podcast. But one of the things that I notice a lot is that people go into clinical practice wanting to do like a really good job, right? They just want to make health care a better place. They want to affect systems and they want to you know, a lot of people want to work in like underserved communities.


    00:05:21:03 - 00:05:30:04

    Speaker 1

    And you know, nonprofit clinics that don't have a lot of funding. They have like a lot of work to do and not a lot of people power to do it. And there's a lot of dysfunction that can happen.


    00:05:30:06 - 00:05:30:24

    Speaker 2

    So I think.


    00:05:30:24 - 00:05:49:21

    Speaker 1

    That that's I think that that's maybe a place that we can start is like maybe there's an example of like trying to think like every pretty much every person I've talked to about this in the workplace setting has been like, wow, this is like everywhere. This is like wild and fascinating. And so I guess like an example I could potentially think about is just maybe, I don't know and you let me know, Brooke.


    00:05:49:21 - 00:06:04:13

    Speaker 1

    But like, is there like if there's somebody who's in like a leadership position, they want to like, kind of go above and beyond and like, I don't know, it's almost like this kind of savior ish complex. I don't know. I don't know where you want to jump in. Where do you want to jump in with that? What is a drama triangle?


    00:06:04:13 - 00:06:09:16

    Speaker 1

    And can you think of like an example of of how to flesh that out in like a workplace setting?


    00:06:09:18 - 00:06:31:20

    Speaker 2

    I think. Yes, I think let me try to describe this more theoretically. I'm going to give a personal example and I'll start fleshing it out in the workplace setting. Okay. So the drama triangle, I actually learned about this concept through the example I'm going to give through one of my therapist friends who said, I think there's a drama triangle going on right now in your family.


    00:06:31:20 - 00:07:11:22

    Speaker 2

    And I said, What's? So basically, it's this concept that was that was named that is a dynamic that tends to exist in dysfunction or in stressed systems, whether that's the family, the workplace. It can kind of be in any really in any system. And when there is stress, when there is dysfunction, when there is perhaps even a history of trauma, especially in families, we can start to notice these this triangle develop where three roles are available and only three roles.


    00:07:11:22 - 00:07:40:10

    Speaker 2

    And everybody in the dynamic has to fit into one of these roles of either victim, rescuer or persecutor. Okay. Now, for those of us who've done some self-growth work, we know everybody's a complex human. We hear some each other, some ourselves up in one word, I'm just a victim. I'm just a bully or a persecutor. I'm just a savior and just a rescuer.


    00:07:40:12 - 00:08:15:13

    Speaker 2

    That that's very one dimensional and it's not empowering, as we'll talk about. But when you start noticing dysfunction in all settings, you often will see, whoa, people are slotting in to these positions. So I'm going to give you this personal example and then we can flesh out what each of them means. Okay, so here was the setting. This was like, gosh, nine, ten years ago now, I was with my mom and my sister.


    00:08:15:13 - 00:08:37:17

    Speaker 2

    We were in a little cabin that we got. I think it was Christmas time and I was going through a period of time where I was learning to set boundaries in a bigger way with my family, particularly with my mom and my sister. And my mom had not done the personal growth work at that point that I had.


    00:08:37:19 - 00:09:06:09

    Speaker 2

    And so we were used to interacting in a certain way. And suddenly I come in to this Christmas time cabin and I'm coming in with this strong energy. The looking back, I'm like, It was a little messy. I was learning how to do boundaries, but there's strong energy where I was being much more assertive. I was expressing anger more freely to my mom, some about the present and some about the past.


    00:09:06:11 - 00:09:40:06

    Speaker 2

    And my sister, I remember, started reacting to me so strongly. She was enraged. I remember her crying in anger, going, You are being cruel to mom. How could you? You are being cruel. And my mom, I remember, started crying and withdrew to like a bedroom and was like crying and just hurt. And I felt insane. I remember I felt so much shame and was like, What is happening?


    00:09:40:06 - 00:10:01:01

    Speaker 2

    Am I being a horrible person right now? I'm so confused because I thought I'm just I'm just naming some truth here or I'm just sharing. I mean, I don't even remember what it was. It could have been like, Well, that makes me really frustrated that you would say that, because that's actually not what my experience was, right? That was not bullying, that was not yelling.


    00:10:01:03 - 00:10:28:08

    Speaker 2

    So I called my friend Jamie and I said, I don't know what the hell is going on. And I shared with her the scenario and I said, Am I being awful? I was still thrown. And she brings up, I hear the drama triangle. I said, What do you mean, what's that? She explains it. So essentially I in my family system was being put into the role of persecutor.


    00:10:28:10 - 00:10:30:20

    Speaker 1

    I yeah. Like villain is another word I've heard of.


    00:10:30:20 - 00:10:57:21

    Speaker 2

    Villain, villain and hero. Yeah, Yeah. nice. I was being seen as its villain coming in, just like beating people up and being cruel. I mean, that word I was like. And my sister in this case was the rescuer who was going, Mom, as the victim, how dare you not rescue her and enable her manage her feelings? So she came in ready to fight the villain?


    00:10:57:21 - 00:11:29:24

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. And then my mom was in this very disempowered victim role where she was just feeling victimized by me. And rather than being able to be in her adult self and go, Wow, you have an interesting point. Ah. that's really painful to hear. Let's talk about it. She went into this kind of collapse victim feeling. Yeah. So once I realized once I heard that, my gosh, and I saw that, I was able to go, okay, okay, I'm not actually being a villain or a persecutor and I'm going to step outside of that.


    00:11:30:01 - 00:11:42:00

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, they didn't step outside of that, But but it it changed the scenario for me. So does that give kind of a starting picture of what this triangle is or looks like?


    00:11:42:03 - 00:12:02:04

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, Yeah, definitely. I mean, I yeah, I definitely feel like we can talk more of like, you know, like, yeah, like it's a, it's kind of like, it's, it's almost like the self sustaining thing if you're not aware of it was like if you can have, for example, like that dynamic of like you said, you just said something very plainly that they perceived as being very hurtful.


    00:12:02:09 - 00:12:03:23

    Speaker 1

    Right? But like.


    00:12:04:00 - 00:12:05:06

    Speaker 2

    Like to you.


    00:12:05:06 - 00:12:27:02

    Speaker 1

    Could have continued in that situation, right. Of like playing a different role. Right? Like you would be like, I'm actually the victim here. Like, you had this thing with me or like, yes or no, like, like I anyway, need to talk about it. But there's ways that, like, I think what usually happens is my understanding is that it's like if you don't see the pattern is that you kind of just continue to shift roles.


    00:12:27:02 - 00:12:43:05

    Speaker 1

    And so one thing that could have happened with you is that you they they were giving you the message that you were this like persecutor villain. And like what what before you learned about this? Like, what do you feel like would have happened? Can you think of an example of like if you don't see that this dynamic is happening, what would happen?


    00:12:43:07 - 00:13:06:01

    Speaker 2

    What would have happened at one point in my life is I would have collapsed in shame. And gosh, but my gosh, I am being a villain. I'm so sorry, Mom. And I would have gone back into this enmeshed family system, which is often another unhealthy alternative to the goal, which is, my gosh, I should never make you feel uncomfortable.


    00:13:06:01 - 00:13:25:22

    Speaker 2

    That would be one. Yeah. And then the whole system would be like, okay, she's back in line now. Cool. Yeah. Another thing I could have done would be finger pointing, as you said, maybe to my sister. No, you're the persecutor. How dare you put that on me or I could have done that with my mom. No, you are the villain.


    00:13:25:22 - 00:13:45:04

    Speaker 2

    Look at all this stuff that you did in my life. Or I could have switched to trying to protect one of them. So just like you said, the interesting thing is these are all shifts. We can go into different roles and different people. One person might see me as a rescuer, another person might see me as a persecutor, another person might see me as the victim.


    00:13:45:07 - 00:14:09:00

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. So the problem is, like you said, it's self-perpetuating and we get stuck in this cycle. I wonder if now that I've given you that example, if I could go through each one of these and just give a couple more bullet points. Yeah. What each one looks like, people can think about if anybody in their life tends to take on these traits, if they notice in themselves.


    00:14:09:02 - 00:14:11:10

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Any of these qualities.


    00:14:11:12 - 00:14:26:19

    Speaker 1

    I think. I think that would be really helpful because I think that just to like lay some blanks for people because like, we're both doing this like how this shows up on an individual interpersonal level, but also how it shows up in an end. Like, well, we'll pull it back to the to the nurse practitioner context of like being in a workplace setting, for example.


    00:14:26:22 - 00:14:46:01

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, Yeah. I think it's, it's it's, I think it's yeah. Really helpful to see like just, just starting to tune in for, for someone who's watching or listening is just starting to tune in. I'm like, Do you ever see this in yourself? Do you see this in your family life? Do you see this in your clinic setting? Especially because there are so many people who are really well intentioned but may be showing up in a rescuer position?


    00:14:46:01 - 00:14:53:05

    Speaker 1

    And like, I think that's like a real hook. I think sometimes that I've noticed in terms of perpetuating this. But yeah, go ahead.


    00:14:53:07 - 00:15:16:17

    Speaker 2

    I see them in my field therapist coaches health care. It's like we're all vulnerable to stepping into a rescuer role. Yes. I think the reason why it'll be helpful to for people to think about these roles in terms of their family, in their individual life is we're more susceptible to stepping into this in the workplace. Yes, we've had experience with it earlier in life.


    00:15:16:21 - 00:15:41:10

    Speaker 2

    yeah, right. So if I was in that place in my family where I would have gone, my God, it's all my fault. I would be more vulnerable than to doing that. And the same thing in the workplace. Right. Okay. So the victim let's talk about what that is. And this could be personal and professional life. People in this role, they feel helpless, They feel oppressed, they feel victimized often.


    00:15:41:10 - 00:16:06:06

    Speaker 2

    They feel in a sense in the situation. And and not to say they're not, but that is a feeling of like I'm just sitting here and I'm being victimized and I need somebody to save me is another important claim because we can experience really awful things in our life and just truth. But there's the piece of the victim is I am powerless and there is nothing I can do about it.


    00:16:06:11 - 00:16:35:24

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. And I need somebody outside of me to help me. I'm almost like a child. Right? Where is Mom and Dad? I need mom and dad to help me because I'm a powerless child. Okay, then going on to the persecutor. The people in this role often have a critical blaming stance. It is a finger pointing, a you. It can be bullying, it can be aggressive or oppressive.


    00:16:36:01 - 00:17:04:09

    Speaker 2

    This person is often seen as the bad guy and hurting others. You know, in my example, you can see sometimes in my my family example, sometimes the person who's actually the most assertive as we get healthier can be seen as a persecutor. Other times it's a person who's actually behaving badly and really throwing their feelings on to somebody else or bullying misbehavior.


    00:17:04:09 - 00:17:05:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, yeah.


    00:17:05:22 - 00:17:26:12

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. So that's a little bit nuanced and I'm glad you brought that example because there's actual situations where people are being victimized, their actual situations where people are hurting each other. But then the nuance of what we're talking about is like is like this kind of belief system of like, you know, like you could be just be you could just be very plain and assertive, like talking, for example, just like tying it back to like nurse practitioner stuff.


    00:17:26:12 - 00:17:39:07

    Speaker 1

    If you're just like, Hey, this person's on my schedule and they shouldn't be there. That's just being plain and talking plainly. But somebody could receive it as like, Wow, like she's just like really being aggressive or something like that.


    00:17:39:08 - 00:17:50:23

    Speaker 2

    That's right. That's right. There is perception here. I just had like five thoughts come in. I was say again. Then you said like two sentences ago. Do you remember what you were saying just a little bit ago? There's something I wanted to comment on.


    00:17:51:02 - 00:17:56:23

    Speaker 1

    Like the example of like there are people who are actually being like, if you give a situation of victimization.


    00:17:56:23 - 00:18:19:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, I wanted to speak to. Yeah, I think that's a really important. There are places where we have been victimized. I think most commonly though, it's when we're children. So the thing is, if we look in family dynamics, yeah, often there are victims in a dysfunctional or abusive thing. The victims are children. Yeah, because they were powerless. Yeah.


    00:18:19:22 - 00:18:43:06

    Speaker 2

    They couldn't say no. They couldn't get in their car and drive away and say, I'm done with this. So oftentimes, how this dynamic is formed is that people have the the victim dynamic is formed is that we may have an experience of being victimized and maybe we haven't gotten to do some healing work around that. So there's a part of us that's like, I'm still powerless.


    00:18:43:07 - 00:18:55:21

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Now, are there settings in the world where people are still being adults, are still being victimized? Yes, totally. And for most of us, we are not powerless now AS Yeah.


    00:18:55:23 - 00:19:18:24

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, yeah. So there's that. So yeah, it's just I think about the nuanced pieces because part of this is some of this is novel for people, especially the context of talking about like, you know, medical education and becoming a nurse practitioner. I think it's a pretty novel conversation, but I feel like it's also just so incredibly important when we think about the reasons for compassion fatigue, for burnout, for leaving the profession.


    00:19:18:24 - 00:19:25:00

    Speaker 1

    Like, yeah, so I think yeah. So hopefully that people can keep in mind that this is a pretty nuanced conversation. And it is.


    00:19:25:00 - 00:19:53:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, continue. That's right. This is really complex. I'm so glad you brought that up. And something I was going to say later that I'll say now is oftentimes we have to unpack this in therapy. Yeah. Because it it is it's nuanced. It's complex. Oftentimes it runs really deep. Yeah. Speaking of compassion fatigue, burnout, I do think that often goes with those of us who tend to step into the rescuer role.


    00:19:53:22 - 00:20:17:24

    Speaker 2

    Right. And so people in this role tend to feel like they need to fix or save a perceived victim. Yeah, and it may many times it may be someone who in their family growing up, they saw somebody mistreated and they felt some somehow in the role of being like the together one, the one that could speak up for the person being victimized.


    00:20:18:05 - 00:20:44:04

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. They often, as you said earlier, do this with good intentions. But unfortunately, by treating somebody like a victim, we can often perpetuate this sense of helplessness. You're right. You are powerless. You need me to come in and save you, However, in this culture and are quite dysfunctional, at least. Speaking of American culture, we tend to see the rescuer as the good guy.


    00:20:44:04 - 00:21:06:10

    Speaker 2

    Rescuers are often esteemed. Yeah, and I think in health care, people who can be selfless, who can be like, don't worry about my needs, I'm going to show up here. It really is a beautiful thing, right? Because we get to serve. Yeah. And that's where we and our own needs and our humanity goes out the window. I mean, of course we're going to burn out.


    00:21:06:12 - 00:21:23:15

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, yeah. And I and I just wanted to highlight to what you said about the, like I think a big piece of that comes down to agency. Maybe that's part of the nuance is that like when we come in as somebody who's like a rescuer who is like trying to help somebody who is oppressed or victimized, it's like everybody has agency right there.


    00:21:23:15 - 00:21:46:15

    Speaker 1

    Again, the nuance situations, right, where there is not agency. But what we're talking about is largely this applies. I'm all zoom it back out later on. But like largely this applies to a situation of like just remembering that we have agency, our coworkers have agency, our family members have agency. Right. And like, right, like we're not when you're coming in to rescue somebody, it's assuming that they don't have what it takes to take care of themselves.


    00:21:46:15 - 00:21:50:20

    Speaker 1

    And again, nuance, some people don't. But what we're talking about is really adults that do.


    00:21:50:22 - 00:22:04:24

    Speaker 2

    Correct? That's right. I wear my head just fine. As I'm curious, are any of the mirror, your listeners and watchers, people who might be in a hospital setting where there's patients who truly are out of commission or helpless or.


    00:22:04:24 - 00:22:17:22

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, I think for the most part people are primary care providers. There are some people who are in the emergency department or who are also in the hospital, but for the most part I think it's primary care. But yeah, there are some situations where we're taking care of people that don't have agency.


    00:22:17:24 - 00:22:23:09

    Speaker 2

    Okay, so there might be a bit of nuance there as well. Yeah, totally.


    00:22:23:11 - 00:22:39:09

    Speaker 1

    But yeah, so we covered the general idea of like what the drama triangle is. It's like this kind of pattern of participation of roles, these like kind of superficial roles that don't really look at the full humanity of the person and the full agency, and that if we don't, we're not aware of it. We can kind of keep kind of going in circles.


    00:22:39:09 - 00:22:46:17

    Speaker 1

    And I wish I wish I had better examples from like I've had so many conversations with people in their in their work and interpersonal relationships where this has shown up.


    00:22:46:17 - 00:22:48:15

    Speaker 2

    But I don't.


    00:22:48:15 - 00:22:51:07

    Speaker 1

    Know where do you want to take the conversation from here?


    00:22:51:09 - 00:22:59:16

    Speaker 2

    Well, actually, I had a couple notes on the impact of it, and we're just going to that. So I want to name this a little bit like, why does this matter?


    00:22:59:16 - 00:23:05:05

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, why does this matter? Why why are you so passionate about it? Yeah, because I know that this is something that's really important to you.


    00:23:05:07 - 00:23:16:21

    Speaker 2

    It is important to me. And in part because it just comes up with. Yeah, I don't know, 80% of my clients, I see it all over the place. Like I said, I've seen it in my own life.


    00:23:16:23 - 00:23:18:17

    Speaker 1

    We work together. Just full disclosure.


    00:23:18:19 - 00:23:19:23

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Yeah.


    00:23:20:04 - 00:23:22:15

    Speaker 1

    I've worked through it a lot in the last two years.


    00:23:22:17 - 00:23:45:24

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, it's so, so prevalent. So one thing I jot in my notes here is everybody loses in this triangle. So we might think that somebody in the rescuer role is like, Well, that's the good one to be in. At least I've got agency. Yeah, at least I'm the good guy. But here's the thing that comes up with a lot of health care providers.


    00:23:46:01 - 00:24:08:11

    Speaker 2

    Well, actually, what happens when we're in the rescuer role, we lose ourselves. Yeah, we lose ourselves. So many of us are over focused on the victim. And so then somebody comes up and goes, How are you doing? What are your needs? How are your feelings? And if you're in the rescuer role, you might be like, I'm fine. Yeah.


    00:24:08:12 - 00:24:30:07

    Speaker 2

    And actually be totally out of touch with your feelings or I don't actually know how I am or I do know I'm not really okay or I'm having needs, but it's fine. I'll put that on the back burner. And so essentially it's a statement to of self abandonment. It's a statement of I don't really matter. That's also disempowering.


    00:24:30:11 - 00:25:00:02

    Speaker 2

    You know, everybody loses in the cycle and there's no way out of this cycle. There is no way to go. Well, if I if I fight hard enough as the rescuer eventually will get out of the cycle, the cycle actually traps us. And I think that's really important for people to hear. Yeah. That it's not like, well, just keep trying harder to save this person and then you'll be done you know it self-perpetuating weaker if that's not clear why I could talk about that it creates a culture.


    00:25:00:02 - 00:25:10:14

    Speaker 2

    If we go to workplace, it creates a culture of blame and division. Yeah, it creates a culture actually, of victimization and bullying, basically.


    00:25:10:19 - 00:25:14:23

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, I actually I have I do have an example whenever you want to jump in with that.


    00:25:14:23 - 00:25:17:13

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, there's a little.


    00:25:17:13 - 00:25:36:22

    Speaker 1

    Bit of a vulnerable share, but I'll try to keep the macro details. But pretty much and the reason I share it, so this is my part of my story and that's the reason I share this is because it's not only me that's had this happen. I just feel like I hear it all the time. And so pretty much I went into this clinic setting when I was a brand new nurse practitioner and there was a lot of dysfunction.


    00:25:36:23 - 00:25:54:19

    Speaker 1

    There was like too much work to do, not enough people to do it. And it was kind of this like underlying like we show up for work, we do, we do the things we just we all go above and beyond. And that was the expectation, right? It was a kind of this like encouragement of not taking care of ourselves and not having boundaries and things like that.


    00:25:54:19 - 00:26:22:00

    Speaker 1

    And I think there was a there was some there are some frustration that I had. And I came in and I was and I'm so much about optimization and how to improve things and leadership and stuff like that. And so what I noticed that there were some things that were not functional and I took it upon myself to try going above and beyond, try to make some improvements to processes of how we trained our medical assistance, how we were, you know, functioning in our electronic health record system to make it more efficient in the clinic setting.


    00:26:22:02 - 00:26:36:13

    Speaker 1

    And I was kind of just stepping outside of my role, which was to be a nurse practitioner, to see patients, to be on a team, to communicate with my leadership. And I kind of stepped out of that a little bit, being like, I can help, I have resources, I have vision, like I can talk like we all have to go above and beyond anyway, right?


    00:26:36:15 - 00:27:06:01

    Speaker 1

    And what ended up happening is I think that there was this culture. It wasn't just me, but I think the whole culture was kind of just like there was this friction between, you know, who is in leadership, who is doing doing the work on the ground, and then like, you know, trying to stick up for and be an advocate for the people who are having a hard time, which like meaning like the other staff members, like the front desk, the medical systems, the nurses, like the other nurse practitioners, the other providers, things like that got me a little bit of trouble because I was stepping outside my boundaries there.


    00:27:06:03 - 00:27:26:02

    Speaker 1

    But I think I ended up leaving that job and I think seeing in hindsight that I participated in a lot of dysfunction, I think I don't know if that's like a helpful example, but I guess the thing that I hear over and over again is that people come in as a brand new nurse practitioner, coming from an expert role, as a nurse, as a nurse before, and being a brand new grad and being like, whoa, I don't know what I'm doing.


    00:27:26:04 - 00:27:48:03

    Speaker 1

    And they want to bring that level of leadership and passion and drive and making things better. And they're coming from this really well-intentioned place as I was, where it was like, I'm going to rescue, you know, my coworkers, I'm going to rescue the clinic, I'm going to make the morale better here. And it was like I was relating to myself as kind of like taking on that responsibility that I had that agency to do that.


    00:27:48:05 - 00:28:00:16

    Speaker 1

    And then I think the other pieces I was relating to the leadership as, you know, this kind of like they don't care, they're bullies. And then the people that I worked with have like they can't help themselves, Like I have to help them cause I'm in this leadership role.


    00:28:00:18 - 00:28:01:08

    Speaker 2

    And even that.


    00:28:01:08 - 00:28:04:00

    Speaker 1

    Was so messy. And this is like,


    00:28:04:02 - 00:28:05:04

    Speaker 2

    A lot of people.


    00:28:05:06 - 00:28:08:02

    Speaker 1

    Share the same thing. And I'm like, Well, you have to cool it like less.


    00:28:08:03 - 00:28:27:22

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, I think it's the most natural thing, actually. This is this happens all over the place. And what I'm hearing, interestingly, is not only you were coming in with some rescuer energy, not only were you seeing your coworkers as a bit of victim clinic, Yes, I was the victim. And I guess that's fascinating that we can see whatever we want to call that.


    00:28:27:22 - 00:28:28:08

    Speaker 2

    In Oregon.


    00:28:28:08 - 00:28:32:09

    Speaker 1

    The clinic is failing because we don't like because of all of these things that need to be.


    00:28:32:11 - 00:28:41:24

    Speaker 2

    Learned. Yeah, And I think so in a way, it's like, who's running the clinic? Well, these people in charge. So them, they become the persecutor. Yeah. Your and I was you the clinic.


    00:28:41:24 - 00:28:52:00

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. And I think that what ended up happening with the quote unquote trouble, I don't want to get into the details, but I think that I was being seen as as a persecutor because I was stirring things up. And so I think.


    00:28:52:02 - 00:28:52:22

    Speaker 2

    Like.


    00:28:52:24 - 00:28:55:20

    Speaker 1

    Like I was a bully and like the the troublemaker, you know.


    00:28:56:01 - 00:29:03:06

    Speaker 2

    Less or less point that out. So you came in with some rescuer energy, not to say there wasn't already drama triangle going on 100%.


    00:29:03:08 - 00:29:04:10

    Speaker 1

    there totally was 100.


    00:29:04:11 - 00:29:30:18

    Speaker 2

    But you came in with the rest. Your energy saw the clinic or coworkers about in the victim role and which naturally made the leadership the persecutors. Yeah. So then their drama triangle kicks in and they go, How dare you make me seem like the persecutor? You're the persecutor. Yeah, right. So it got flipped around. Now I also want a name like other pieces that sometimes we come in.


    00:29:30:18 - 00:29:57:01

    Speaker 2

    You probably came in with natural gifts, as you're saying, like leadership or vision. I mean, knowing you, I know you have got a lot of vision. So there and we'll talk about this. There's ways to be empowered and not a rescuer. You may have been coming in with some really useful things for the clinic. And because of insecurity in leadership and feeling threatened, you know, that's more dysfunctional crap.


    00:29:57:01 - 00:30:20:20

    Speaker 2

    That's different than the drama triangle. But it's like then, well, I guess we could tie it. End of. Yes. Seeing you as the persecutor feeling threatened. And then rather than taking self responsibility of going, why do I feel threatened? What am I scared of here? Wow, how amazing that this new hire is actually wanting to bring value to our organization rather than doing that.


    00:30:20:20 - 00:30:27:12

    Speaker 2

    They just threw this, you know, slime on to you of going, Well, you're the persecutor. Yeah.


    00:30:27:12 - 00:30:45:21

    Speaker 1

    And I guess I think that I think having an example like a like a more just more and more concrete example is I think can be helpful because I think that for me just personally speaking like when you're like so I learned about this concept from you through the course that you had have I think I still have, but this is a couple of years ago and I was like, it just like blew my mind.


    00:30:45:21 - 00:30:48:06

    Speaker 1

    And I think that being in that place.


    00:30:48:08 - 00:30:48:21

    Speaker 2

    Before.


    00:30:48:21 - 00:31:09:16

    Speaker 1

    Of just seeing it, I think my one of my thoughts was like, well, how do you get out of that? Like, what do you deal? What do you do to deal with that? Because it's like, at least in my other anecdote, like other personal experience, this has shown up not just in the workplace setting, but in other personal life settings where, like I've shown up and I've noticed that I'm in a drama triangle, which you are familiar with, right?


    00:31:09:18 - 00:31:31:03

    Speaker 1

    Like without giving concrete examples or it's like I kind of like set a boundary and it was like I was immediately seen as a villain and that person has chosen not to see, like to see me forever as a villain. And I felt like I had a lost relationship because this person was still so bought into the victim villain.


    00:31:31:05 - 00:31:47:14

    Speaker 1

    Rescuer Yeah, a victim villain hero situation. So like, yeah, like how, how does one like break out of that, whether it's workplace setting or like, what are the next steps? So once you recognize like, wow, I think I'm participating in this great question.


    00:31:47:14 - 00:32:12:18

    Speaker 2

    There's so much to it and I'm just trying to think of where I want to start. One thing is to just go in knowing that this is hefty, as in it's not a quick fix. And I think going in sober minded of knowing a lot of times others don't want to switch, they don't want to shift. So my mom and my sister stayed in their roles for a very long time.


    00:32:12:20 - 00:32:38:12

    Speaker 2

    One of them shifted out of it, but it's like that's not a given. So I think that's just important to know that we can only influence ourselves here and that in this environment, people may continue to see us through that lens. And that's really hard. Like they may continue seeing us as a prosecutor. So just want to name that and not put pressure on yourself to be like, Well, now I have to shift the silent shift, this whole dynamic.


    00:32:38:17 - 00:33:04:12

    Speaker 2

    yeah. So going to what we can do. The first thing is awareness, and that's what we're doing on this podcast is like just even bringing this to our awareness in that example with my family that are where I immediately when my friend told me about that, I immediately was just like I had this huge relief and the shame started to go away because I realized, this isn't mine to carry, this isn't appropriate.


    00:33:04:14 - 00:33:28:07

    Speaker 2

    So don't underestimate the power of starting to see totally. I would say that first off, just looking around and going, am I? Whether by my own hand or someone else's view being put into a role, one of those three roles where other people in this are just starting to look at that name? I really I feel like that's 80% of it.


    00:33:28:07 - 00:33:57:15

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, I really, truly, truly. Then I think starting to ask ourselves, is there a chance, like, is there a chance I'm committed to a certain role so that person seeing me as a persecutor, is there any chance I at some level am feeling like a victim or I'm seeing myself as a rescuer or the hero? Because if we do, there's some really big work there to do.


    00:33:57:15 - 00:34:17:07

    Speaker 2

    So for example, maybe I go, Yeah, there's I feel like I'm being bullied and it takes me into kind of a little kid place and that's really familiar to me. It's a familiar feeling in my body, a familiar experience in my life. I feel kind of collapsed. I feel small. I don't know how to get out of this.


    00:34:17:07 - 00:34:43:13

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, I would share for somebody who had that awareness because that is actually really empowering. Once we realize that's there, we can start working with it. Yeah, yeah. Versus just blaming the other isn't going well. You're just in this drama triangle. We really want to start with ourselves. Yeah. Similarly. I am a little bit committed to being a rescuer.


    00:34:43:13 - 00:34:52:24

    Speaker 2

    I do feel like my coworkers aren't very empowered. I don't know if I really believe that they can help themselves.


    00:34:53:01 - 00:34:56:14

    Speaker 1

    I am patients that we're taking care of two or.


    00:34:56:15 - 00:35:21:09

    Speaker 2

    Okay. Or patients who are taking care of. And I think one thing I sometimes hear when people are in the rescuer position and they go, Well, what what's that person going to do? Well, you know, well who's going to help them either I will say, well, they're an adult. So actually, I wonder, this is their journey. So let's say it's a coworker.


    00:35:21:10 - 00:35:34:15

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Who is it being treated well or is having feelings about something? It's like, well, what are they going to do in their journey of becoming a healthy adult? They've got to navigate that. Yeah. And figure out what to do.


    00:35:34:16 - 00:35:55:11

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. And I think that's also hard too, because when people are participating and they don't, they're not aware of it. So like, for example, if I'm thinking about that coworker, if they're participating in it, they're going to see themselves as a victim and they're not going to see that they have that personal agency as an adult. And so for us, as the rescuer to be like, No, no, no, they're an agent adult, they have capacity.


    00:35:55:13 - 00:36:02:06

    Speaker 1

    They might not see that for themselves, in which case, like you might turn into the persecutor because you're not helping them.


    00:36:02:08 - 00:36:29:22

    Speaker 2

    All you need to. But yeah, yeah, it's so common. Yes. So like they see you as a persecutor and we might have to have the uncomfortable experience of going, Wow, that's really unhealthy. And they may live as a perceived victim for the next ten years or the rest of their life. Yeah, and can I sit with that? Can I like.


    00:36:29:22 - 00:36:32:12

    Speaker 2

    No, that's really hard.


    00:36:32:13 - 00:36:50:00

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, that's been the hardest part for me is like the awareness was like mind blowing for me. But then the actual work of stepping out of that, of just like letting, like, letting that be true of like, no, they're an adult. They get to, they get to make their own decisions, like not being able to control any perception they have about me or our relationship.


    00:36:50:00 - 00:36:52:08

    Speaker 1

    Like, it's really it is really hard.


    00:36:52:10 - 00:37:10:24

    Speaker 2

    It's really challenging. And that's where it goes to our personal growth work, where I get to go, okay, what's hard about this for me is that I start looking at what are those kind of unconscious, subconscious thoughts? Well, I mean, sometimes goes to if it's this is Jerry's childhood trauma underneath it. Well, they're going to die like really like they're not going to be okay.


    00:37:11:01 - 00:37:33:00

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Yeah. Fundamentally. Or well, then they're going to feel really unhappy. this is a big one. They're going to feel really miserable. They're going to continue to feel miserable. And then I'm going to have to feel their bad vibes every day when I go to work. So this is another huge, huge, huge one, especially for helpers who often are highly sensitive to.


    00:37:33:01 - 00:37:34:10

    Speaker 1

    Empathic ton of empathic.


    00:37:34:10 - 00:37:57:00

    Speaker 2

    People. So it's like sometimes we step into the rescue role because I'm like, I want this person to stop being a whiny baby. Come on, let's help you, like, get out early so I don't have to be around your misery every day, right? And then that's a whole other conversation. Well, why do I do that? Of this person is miserable and I'm feeling their energy.


    00:37:57:03 - 00:38:23:23

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, that's hard. Totally. Totally. I wanted to say one other thing about that. When people are in the rescuer role and I'm going, well, this person is an adult, they've got to figure that out. The other thing is if we actually are seeing someone being victimized, let's say a patient and something is happening that's still I mean, maybe we maybe we need to take legal action.


    00:38:23:23 - 00:38:49:11

    Speaker 2

    Maybe something needs to be reported. Yeah. And we can say, well, isn't that the rescuer role? If I'm if I'm reporting something on behalf of a coworker? Yeah, that's not right. I could support them maybe and saying, you know, this isn't okay, you might want to report this. Yeah. If it's on behalf of a patient and something I don't, again know all the protocols and how this works, but yeah, maybe we do need to report something, say something.


    00:38:49:11 - 00:38:58:14

    Speaker 2

    But again, you're probably still not going to be the person who's then going to be like a vigilante on behalf of this patient. Totally. Yeah.


    00:38:58:14 - 00:39:26:11

    Speaker 1

    And I think that I think that people who are clinicians like, have a fair enough sense of like, yeah, I think that's potentially part of the tricky part of this profession is that like there are people in legitimate like they don't have agency capacity and you need to care for them. But like, where do we pull back that line and recognize like even in some situations people still have agency, you know, as long as they're cognitively stable, as long as they, you know, have the physical accessibility, things like that.


    00:39:26:13 - 00:39:47:05

    Speaker 2

    I really love that. I feel like that's is so empowered what you're doing. In a way. I feel like you subtly saying to your audience, don't get sucked into the story, even when it looks like people are victims. Often there's some agency and even recognizing an ounce of agency may be a game changer. Totally. Totally. Love that.


    00:39:47:07 - 00:40:06:01

    Speaker 1

    Totally. It's so it's so fascinating, all of this stuff because it's like it's I've just learned so much in the in the role transition Pierce It's like it's just I don't know. It's just wild. And like, I think that it's it's so important to be talking about things like this because you just can't you can't stop a Band-Aid on compassion fatigue and burnout, right?


    00:40:06:01 - 00:40:22:17

    Speaker 1

    It's like you can't just do like another seminar about, you know, self-care practices, right? Not that those things aren't important, but I feel like just this deep stuff is like I just I love this topic because I feel like it's such an easy enough access point. You know, like you said, like it's like 80% of it is the understanding.


    00:40:22:17 - 00:40:37:22

    Speaker 1

    We do have to kind of like take those next steps of like, how do we step out of it and what care do we need and what, you know, maybe emotional support, therapy support do we need in our own life and but it's it's I think that just sharing with some of my friends in my personal life that our clinicians, they are just like mind blown.


    00:40:38:02 - 00:40:44:19

    Speaker 1

    And I think that it's really helped them just to recognize that piece of like, no, they they're they're adults. They're adults.


    00:40:44:21 - 00:40:58:14

    Speaker 2

    You know. Would you say in your experience, most people in your profession tend to fall into the rescuer hero role, or do you see them kind of flipping through all of them?


    00:40:58:17 - 00:41:08:22

    Speaker 1

    I think there's a flipping through all of them. I think that people tend to hang out any of the rescue are rescuer or victim. And then there's a lot of self-righteousness about who is the villain.


    00:41:08:24 - 00:41:10:04

    Speaker 2

    Who invites.


    00:41:10:07 - 00:41:36:16

    Speaker 1

    Right. But there's also people who are very much like, I have some experiences of previous work place settings where in my career far where there's somebody who is who is, you know, deemed me as a villain. And I feel wherever I'm going to be a villain like ten years later, connecting with somebody or like hearing about a situation from my former workplace setting and the way that like there's yeah, it's like, okay.


    00:41:36:21 - 00:41:39:21

    Speaker 1

    Okay. So they're still holding a grudge against me ten years later.


    00:41:39:21 - 00:41:40:22

    Speaker 2

    That's okay.


    00:41:40:24 - 00:41:50:21

    Speaker 1

    You know, because I feel much better about it because it's like it felt so bad at the time, you know? But at the same time, it's like I can see it for what it is and I take it a lot less personally.


    00:41:50:23 - 00:41:52:01

    Speaker 2

    Yeah.


    00:41:52:03 - 00:42:02:01

    Speaker 1

    no. I actually was just being an advocate, like a genuine advocate in that moment. And you saw me as a troublemaker and like, you're just going to hold that against and that's okay. You're going to be spiteful.


    00:42:02:03 - 00:42:25:00

    Speaker 2

    Because you're in health care. But people do things. You know how I know that's so big, what you just said of the like just even a little shift of this isn't personal can be so helpful. And also, naming is hard. I am not immune to hating when I'm seen as the villain. I hate it and I have to do so much work to go.


    00:42:25:02 - 00:42:48:09

    Speaker 2

    I can allow it. I can tolerate that without needing to get involved and change that perception totally. Do you think it might be helpful to speak briefly about, okay, once we're aware, there's a drama triangle here I am. I committed to a certain position. If I realize I'm in a certain position, would it be helpful to talk about with each one how to get out of it?


    00:42:48:09 - 00:43:00:15

    Speaker 2

    Yes, definitely so. And I actually think a precursor question is, would I like to get out of this role? Again, something that sounds but it's important.


    00:43:00:15 - 00:43:16:05

    Speaker 1

    To be honest. I think that's the subtle question that people like. I wouldn't ask myself, right, Like before we started talking about this type of stuff. Yeah it gets comfortable. It's totally cozy and comfortable because it's based on a lot of historical stuff, probably. And you are comfortable in that role.


    00:43:16:07 - 00:43:21:04

    Speaker 2

    That's right. There is this concept in psychology called secondary gain.


    00:43:21:06 - 00:43:27:18

    Speaker 1

    Yes, you are getting out of it and another terminology, but like what are you getting out of it? Basically you get it's getting you something.


    00:43:27:18 - 00:43:45:22

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Yeah. It's the idea that none of us do anything without reason. Yes. And that can be kind of shocking. Why in the world would I want to feel like a victim? Well, actually, you tell me honestly. Let's think about that. Do what would happen if you stepped out of the victim role. What might you be scared of?


    00:43:45:24 - 00:44:14:20

    Speaker 2

    So that's a thing for, I think, journaling is really great here. Just asking yourself that question, what would happen? What am I scared of? Yeah, would happen if I stepped out of this role. So that honestly could be a whole thing, right? That would be a close exploration. Yeah. And we'll talk a little bit about why, but let's just say you have the answer of yes, I want to get out of it.


    00:44:14:20 - 00:44:35:11

    Speaker 2

    I can see that this is not helping and this is hurting. That's ideally where we need to get to. Yeah. Or the gains are smaller than the reward. Yeah, definitely. Though if you recognize you've got a little bit of a victim place in yourself, first you want to notice where do you feel powerless? In what way are you feeling powerless?


    00:44:35:11 - 00:45:00:16

    Speaker 2

    That's your clue. That's actually what's holding it all together. I'm feeling powerless because I feel like I don't have a voice. Yeah, okay. And maybe there really is a leadership dynamic and there is a power dynamic. And still, how is this relevant? Where in my life have I ever had an authority figure before? Yeah, outside of work where I haven't felt like I had a voice.


    00:45:00:18 - 00:45:23:24

    Speaker 2

    yeah. My dad used to make me feel like I was silenced. Yeah. Okay. Like you said, how is this comfortable? How is this familiar? And even recognize is even starting to think. Do I have a right to say no? Do I theoretically think I deserve a voice? Yeah. If someone else was in my position when I told them that they were powerless.


    00:45:24:01 - 00:45:45:22

    Speaker 2

    So it's starting to build that personal agency, that personal self efficacy to go, What if I do have some power? Yeah, and even if I can point to five places, I don't have power. What if there is something. Yeah, that I can do? Yeah. So it's just starting there. Yeah, that makes sense. Definitely starting there.


    00:45:45:24 - 00:46:04:22

    Speaker 1

    Because I think there's like, like just a highlight. I think there are a lot of places, especially in like the work of primary care, especially like a lot of newer people encounter is just like there are limitations on, you know time and and the workload like there's that again time back into burnout There's this expectation of the amount of work that you can get done in a short amount of time.


    00:46:04:24 - 00:46:11:12

    Speaker 1

    And so there are there are definitely pieces that feel out of our control and that are that can be. But there are.


    00:46:11:12 - 00:46:16:17

    Speaker 2

    There's a reality and that perhaps where you going to say something? I want you to finish your thought.


    00:46:16:23 - 00:46:35:17

    Speaker 1

    Well, just like it just like just paying attention to like what is there. Because I think we get so sucked into that paradigm of like, my gosh, I have so many papers in my inbox that I need to review and sign. But it's like taking yourself almost like out of the context of the paperwork and it's like, let's think about just generally speaking, what our agency choices in life, right?


    00:46:35:17 - 00:46:37:15

    Speaker 1

    Like and not getting into the details, right?


    00:46:37:17 - 00:46:59:10

    Speaker 2

    That's right. Because really this is a perspective thing. Yes, that's right. So, okay, where do in my life I have some agency. Am I taking good care of myself or is this overwhelm causing me to throw away all the good self-care practices? Am I getting some movement and am I drinking enough water, allowing myself to have meals, stuff like that?


    00:46:59:10 - 00:47:21:11

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. How can I improve that right there can make you not feel like a victim. Yeah. Another thing I think is a great strategy is taking to if somebody has Abbas taken to a supervisor or manager Abbas and going, can you help me figure this out? Yeah, I'm feeling a dilemma. One of my favorite things is naming a dilemma.


    00:47:21:15 - 00:47:43:02

    Speaker 2

    I'm feeling a dilemma. I'm committed to my role. I really want to do a great job and I'm not able to get through all of this paperwork in one day. Can you help me brainstorm this? And I don't know, for some that might be like that is not an option. But even bringing collaboratively and going I'm I'm not sure how to do this.


    00:47:43:02 - 00:47:48:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Allows us to be an adult who's voicing our needs and going how can I what can I do? Yeah.


    00:47:48:24 - 00:47:51:11

    Speaker 1

    Deficit makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.


    00:47:51:13 - 00:48:01:08

    Speaker 2

    Okay, so let's go into the persecutor. It's a rare probably your audience is rarely.


    00:48:01:10 - 00:48:02:17

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, overtly.


    00:48:02:22 - 00:48:33:17

    Speaker 2

    Overtly a persecutor. Although I thought of something, you know, overtly aggressive, overtly bullying. But I think something we need to look at is gossip. Yeah, I think gossip can be a really passive aggressive way of being a persecutor. It's. It is damaging and it is, you know, taking somebody down a notch. And if they're a sensitive person, they're going to feel it but have nothing they can point to to go, What's happening here?


    00:48:33:19 - 00:48:50:07

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, it is aggressive, actually. And so I think if that is something for people to look at is how they're using gossip and are they kind of playing out some kind of power play in the gossip, Does that make sense? And that's a relevant.


    00:48:50:07 - 00:49:00:06

    Speaker 1

    Point, Totally irrelevant. I mean, there's some bullying, too. There actually is like overt bullying in some places. But yeah, I guess like I love to hear about the stepping out of that persecutor.


    00:49:00:08 - 00:49:00:18

    Speaker 2

    Role.


    00:49:00:18 - 00:49:11:02

    Speaker 1

    Because I think that when I give the examples of being the being the persecutor, quote unquote, is like I feel like I've been perceived as a persecutor, but I'm just doing an action that's actually appropriate.


    00:49:11:07 - 00:49:12:06

    Speaker 2

    Yeah.


    00:49:12:08 - 00:49:18:11

    Speaker 1

    So I don't know if you have anything to say about that, like being perceived as a persecutor versus you're actually doing things that's like bullying.


    00:49:18:13 - 00:49:49:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah, let's talk about both. So if you are doing things that are like bullying or criticism being critical, I think it's important for you to notice that you're doing that and say, Why am I being so critical? Why am I blaming what am I doing here? How can I look at myself? What is my role in this? If there's no such thing as a persecutor and a victim and a rescuer, then I can't just stand on my high horse and be like, Well, I'm the only one right here.


    00:49:49:20 - 00:50:10:21

    Speaker 2

    What's my what part of my playing? How can I not be critical? How can I stop gossiping? So you're noticing my energy here? Yeah. Yeah. We're stuck in that persecutor role. We need to have some tough love with ourselves and be like, Yeah, this isn't okay. This isn't okay behavior. It's really not. So what am I going to what kind of limits am I going to start with myself?


    00:50:11:00 - 00:50:31:06

    Speaker 2

    So I'm not behaving in this way? Yeah, okay. And that could look like shifting from aggressive to assertive. Maybe we're so pissed and lashing out because we're really upset about something. Well, how about instead of blaming and attacking, how can I say this an assertive way, which is like, Hey, here's what I'm seeing. I want to bring it to our attention.


    00:50:31:06 - 00:50:55:10

    Speaker 2

    I want to talk about it. You know, there's ways to name things that aren't lashing out. Yeah, yeah. Going to the second piece of what if we're being perceived as a persecutor? This is hard, but I think to some degree we have to keep standing in our power and speaking our truth regardless. We just have to, in a way, learn.


    00:50:55:11 - 00:51:02:17

    Speaker 2

    It's hard to ignore it, but kind of like, Well, that's your perception. I'm still going to be assertive.


    00:51:02:19 - 00:51:04:18

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. And I think the things.


    00:51:04:20 - 00:51:04:23

    Speaker 2

    Though.


    00:51:05:01 - 00:51:27:18

    Speaker 1

    Reminds me of when you say that, it's like I think at least for and the reason I keep coming back to this is I think that for me that's been a big part of the stepping out of it is, is that I've gone from this like either rescue or a victim in this kind of classical health care type of setting to like just being okay with being perceived as as that because again, like, it wasn't the things I was actually doing.


    00:51:27:18 - 00:51:51:04

    Speaker 1

    But I think that that's hopefully helpful for people to hear that they may because it's so entrenched, they may be perceived as as as the persecutor. And I think that like, yeah, I think that there's a piece at least there was a piece for me I've got it never feels good, but I've gotten to a place of like I felt so bad when I first started stepping into that, like I'm not being in this triangle anymore.


    00:51:51:06 - 00:52:07:20

    Speaker 1

    I felt so bad that I was almost beating myself up about it. And I think that I was like, I am the villain. I am the worst. Like I did hurt them. So I think I, I think that was the piece when I first started stepping out of like I was still participating because somebody was kind of reflecting to me that I was the persecutor or the villain.


    00:52:07:20 - 00:52:27:10

    Speaker 1

    And I was like, Yeah, I really am selfish. I really am the worst like you. All of these stories, right? Versus like having that growth perspective. But like, I don't know, like, here's the reality. Here are the facts. This is just a piece, again, taking responsibility. Not that I'm trying to shirk responsibility for actions or anything, but I think that can be a really tricky place of stepping out of it.


    00:52:27:12 - 00:52:50:04

    Speaker 2

    And I think kind of like when I reached out to my friend, sometimes we need somebody outside of the environment to blast know that it's not bullying on your behalf. That's what a weird reaction that they had, you know, and not as somebody then stepping in as our rescuer, like, I can't believe it was more totally like, can you do me a reality check here?


    00:52:50:04 - 00:52:51:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. Yeah. It's very.


    00:52:51:22 - 00:53:02:16

    Speaker 1

    Yeah. Because like the crazy making piece like you were talking about, it's like when you're in the middle of it, you're like, wow. Like, did I do something horrible? Or like, they did they do something horrible, right? Like getting those reality checks is really helpful.


    00:53:02:21 - 00:53:30:24

    Speaker 2

    That's right. Stepping out of the confusion. So lastly, going to the rescuer. This is a big one. And I think for a lot of us, this is a lifelong one. So let's say I recognize this isn't helpful for me or for anybody. So first of all, noticing who maybe triggers me into the girl who maybe is in a vibe of victimization.


    00:53:31:04 - 00:53:31:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah.


    00:53:31:22 - 00:53:40:23

    Speaker 1

    Who is committed, especially committed to their victim role. Like, I think that's the stickiest part for me is that like, they're really bad in that they don't have any agency and then I get sucked right in.


    00:53:40:23 - 00:54:01:20

    Speaker 2

    That's right. That's right. That's right. So noticing that, that's the trigger and the like, what is the point that I get sucked in? Is it when they start crying, is it when they say something in a certain tone of voice? Is that when I see them looking so beaten down, what is it That sucks, man. So what's the what's the cue then?


    00:54:01:20 - 00:54:21:01

    Speaker 2

    Going back to what you and I were talking about earlier, the agency reminding ourselves they're an adult and they're on their own journey of self-discovery. So and being treated as powerless or incompetent isn't actually helping them grow.


    00:54:21:01 - 00:54:24:04

    Speaker 1

    Know you're depriving them the opportunity to grow.


    00:54:24:06 - 00:54:27:02

    Speaker 2

    That's right. Okay. Say that again.


    00:54:27:04 - 00:54:43:04

    Speaker 1

    Just. It is like I have to say this to myself to remind myself, but it's like we are depriving them of their opportunity to grow and have agency and even though they may not want that opportunity, they might think that that's a terrible idea. Like we don't get to choose that they're the only.


    00:54:43:05 - 00:54:56:15

    Speaker 2

    People that and if we're stepping in to the rest the role, it could even prevent them from ever getting to that point. I'm going I'm going to choose agency. Yeah. Yeah.


    00:54:56:19 - 00:55:06:12

    Speaker 1

    And we don't get to control that either, right? Like I say, we don't get to control if they ever choose that. But like, that's just, that's, those are just boundaries. Those are just individual boundaries.


    00:55:06:12 - 00:55:09:11

    Speaker 2

    That's what we get. Sorry, I'm so excited.


    00:55:09:11 - 00:55:10:24

    Speaker 1

    You know. Go ahead, jump into it.


    00:55:11:01 - 00:55:28:20

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. What we get to decide is, do I want to be complicit or not in blocking their journey? I may not be blocking it because like you said, they may never choose to do anything else. Yeah, but do I want to be potentially complicit in actually their lack of growth, which is quite confronting?


    00:55:28:22 - 00:55:40:02

    Speaker 1

    Definitely. And I don't think that anybody who's going into this rescue role inadvertently actually wants that. And so I think that's like a really helpful reminder of like, no, if we actually want to help people, we can't do that.


    00:55:40:07 - 00:56:00:15

    Speaker 2

    That's right. That's right. And we shift into more of a coach or more of a leader ourselves shifting into how can I be assertive in my own life for me, how can I support others in going, You've got this. Yeah, I says, are you okay? I'm is this are you. You got this? Yeah. What are you going to do?


    00:56:00:15 - 00:56:04:11

    Speaker 2

    What are you thinking of doing? It's shifting into a totally different vibe with ourselves.


    00:56:04:11 - 00:56:22:08

    Speaker 1

    Totally. And I think that, like, at least some reassurance for me is that, like, I when I can focus on myself, I can be a model for people. I don't have control over whether or not they see it that way. But I think that it does have an impact on people, especially if we're talking about whether it's your workplace setting or an interpersonal, you know, family thing.


    00:56:22:10 - 00:56:39:04

    Speaker 1

    The way we show up impacts the way that other people show up, and maybe they will get curious about how things have shifted and wanting to, you know, like we don't know what's going to happen, but it can have a really positive impact. I'm actually going to be doing an interview with somebody about people pleasing and boundaries. Do you know Hayley Paige McGee, by any chance?


    00:56:39:06 - 00:56:49:13

    Speaker 1

    She's amazing. Okay, He's amazing. But what we were talking about, we haven't had the conversation yet, but I think this applies here too, is that so often I think we see the negatives.


    00:56:49:15 - 00:56:49:23

    Speaker 2

    As.


    00:56:49:23 - 00:57:00:16

    Speaker 1

    Can we see the positives in here of like, not like what are all the ways that this actually can help people, even if we don't control it, Like we can still potentially help people just by the showing up.


    00:57:00:18 - 00:57:08:10

    Speaker 2

    It's kind of that saying like be the change you want to see in the world, just be that change and you don't know who will be touched by that.


    00:57:08:11 - 00:57:21:16

    Speaker 1

    Totally. Totally. My gosh, this is so fun. I want to be mindful of time. Thank you so much. Are there any other things that you want to kind of like parting words or pearls of wisdom or anything like that? Any last parting thoughts?


    00:57:21:18 - 00:57:47:03

    Speaker 2

    Yeah I think for her, anybody who's hearing this for the first time, if you're having any overwhelm, just know that would make total sense. It's kind of a lot. You know, it can be exciting, but at first it can be like, my gosh, suddenly I'm seeing a million relationships through this lens. You just want to say, give yourself some time to just kind of breathe whatever feelings are coming out, maybe take a break from it to just reregulate, come back to it.


    00:57:47:03 - 00:58:06:24

    Speaker 2

    If you I actually didn't realize this till prepping for this interview is there's a book called The Drama Triangle by Stephen Harper, a man with a K. He he's the one who coined this term. And so that's one thing you could look up. I think you could just do a lot of self inquiry and journaling that can get you so far.


    00:58:07:05 - 00:58:19:21

    Speaker 2

    Yeah. And then if you feel like I was saying earlier, like, gosh, this is just a really stark point for me. And it goes deep and I, I can't seem to get out of it. Then it might be a time to look into some therapy. Totally, totally. Yeah.


    00:58:19:21 - 00:58:38:02

    Speaker 1

    And I and I feel like that's part of like, I've so seen that how deep it runs. I think that like a starting place. I think one of the reasons I want to keep bring it back to the workplace is that I think that it can feel a little bit more accessible sometimes of like just dipping our toes and I'm like, I don't really I don't really care if I switch jobs, that's fine, you know?


    00:58:38:04 - 00:58:47:20

    Speaker 1

    But yeah, I just really appreciate that point of like if it is coming because I know we have a lot of sensitive people in the real world and community, so it's important to remember that it can bring up a lot of stuff.


    00:58:47:22 - 00:58:58:13

    Speaker 2

    And, and not being afraid if you have the option to switch jobs. Sometimes when we step out of the rescuer, the whole drama triangle, it's like, I don't want to be here, right?


    00:58:58:15 - 00:59:16:08

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, yeah. Like there's a big this is too. That's what happened to me. It was too entrenched in the drama triangle. I didn't have the words at the time, but on reflection it's like, no, I needed to get out of that place. And and I think it's different now. I think things change or whatever. But yeah, where can people learn more from you or follow along with you?


    00:59:16:08 - 00:59:36:08

    Speaker 2

    Or they can go, thank you, they can go to Intuitive Warrior way dot com and I've got some free tools there. I talk a lot about highly sensitive people, which is really biggest passion. But tying into that is all of this stuff that we tend to deal with. So I'd love to connect with you if, if this spoke to you.


    00:59:36:13 - 00:59:39:21

    Speaker 1

    Amazing. And do you still have your course the liberated HSP?


    00:59:39:23 - 00:59:41:05

    Speaker 2

    I do, yeah.


    00:59:41:07 - 00:59:44:23

    Speaker 1

    So there's asynchronous learning resources too, if people want to learn more.


    00:59:45:00 - 00:59:49:14

    Speaker 2

    So that's correct. The liberated HSP is really a lot about this stuff.


    00:59:49:18 - 00:59:51:12

    Speaker 1

    Yeah, I think that's why I learned about it originally.


    00:59:51:12 - 00:59:55:09

    Speaker 2

    So yeah, that out there. Cool. Thanks so much.


    00:59:55:11 - 00:59:57:13

    Speaker 1

    Thank you. I really appreciate it.


    00:59:57:15 - 00:59:59:05

    Speaker 2

    Thanks for having me, Liz.

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Liz Rohr
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