Caretaker Fatigue: What Is The Root Cause?
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Show notes:
When I started Real World NP, I had a vision of making videos and podcast episodes that NPs could watch and listen to to help their lives be easier. There’s so much to learn in such a short time -- why not share bite-sized, easy to understand episodes about things like hyponatremia and diagnosing abdominal pain?
I realized over the years, though, that a huge reason why NPs are burning out before they finally feel competent (around 3 years in), isn’t just because of the clinical knowledge gaps. And burnout isn’t just because there’s too much work being given to us and not enough time to do it. Having burnt out more than once, I’ve taken some hard looks at what I’m doing and how I may be participating in getting to this place.
Today, I’m interviewing Cat Wood, a dear friend and Executive Coach who is on the short list of people who have changed my life. It’s such a joy to be able to share her wisdom with you. We’re doing some “real talk” about some of the not-so-pretty contributors to burnout in caregivers: “caretaking,” boundaries, and codependency, and how we neglect our own needs as empaths.
We get vulnerable as we both talk about recognizing how sometimes we take care of other people to feel good about ourselves and ways to shift this behavior pattern. We also talk about a suuuper common pitfall for empathic NPs— we take care of other people because we feel capable and ambitious, but forget to check in with ourselves.
Just because we can do something doesn’t mean that we should do it. The truth is, we can only take care of others to the degree that we take care of ourselves.
If you’re like me and sooo many other NPs who are used to stepping over our needs, it’s normal to feel like you don’t know what your needs and desires are. But in this episode, we give you a practical framework to start developing your authentic voice and boundaries with yourself and others. This is part of the work Cat and I have done together that hands down, has changed my life. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did!
We cover:
What “caretaking” is, how it manifests itself in relationships, and why you can’t fill someone else’s cup before you fill your own
Learning how to protect and hold sacred your gifts as an empathic person so you don’t end up using them against yourself
Why you should recognize your caretaking and codependency traits and stop always jumping in to be a hero
Normalizing that you may not know what your needs and desires are (yet!) after neglecting them for a long time
How to start enforcing your needs and boundaries in your relationships with yourself and others and start feeling well-resourced and cherished
Resources mentioned in this episode:
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Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (00:09.038)
Hey there, welcome to the Real World NP podcast. I'm Liz Rohr, family nurse practitioner, educator, and founder of Real World NP, an educational company for nurse practitioners in primary care. I'm on a mission to equip and guide new nurse practitioners so that they can feel confident, capable, and take the best care of their patients.
If you're looking for clinical pearls and practice tips without the fluff, you're in the right place. Make sure you subscribe and leave a review so you won't miss an episode. Plus you'll find links to all the episodes with extra goodies over at realworldnp.com slash podcast. I'm so excited for this conversation. I'm always excited for podcast episodes. I feel like I say that all the time, but I just, this is so fun.
This is so fun. Thank you so much. same way. I say it like every time, like, so excited for this. I'm so excited for today's guest. I need to stop saying that. It's so good. Okay. So I guess that's some context. this episode at least for, so I'm just going to, we're going to be sharing this to both of our podcasts, but just what's kind of framing it from the perspective of the real world, NP community for nurse practitioners. It's a little bit of a different conversation than I've
brought to the podcast so far. And I think that one thing that's really occurred to me this year, especially 2023 is when we're recording it. I think it'll be published later. But one thing that's really come to me is that with real ed NP, the mission is not just about all of the nuts and bolts of what it takes to become an nurse practitioner in the real world of like going from graduation to the real world and like navigating, you know,
diagnosing new conditions and how to do billing and coding, like it is about that. But I think that's such a larger part about it that I think we need to talk more about, especially after the pandemic peak, right? Cause we're still in the middle of stuff, but like, think that's one of the pieces that I'm really feeling called towards is like, what is that? What does that healing actually look like for caregivers? Because I think it's part of that larger conversation of burnout prevention, because at least for my community, what I see
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (02:25.198)
is that people go in with like so much ambition and you know, such lofty ideals and goals and the spirit of it is so strong and heartbreakingly what I see for people is that they go from this like broad-eyed bushy-tailed perspective into burnout before they get to that three-year mark of competence. But I think like, so I think that this is a different type of conversation because it's really touching on that deeper part, that deeper work that goes into the burnout prevention.
It's really not just about eating enough, you know, eating square meals, healthy meals, drinking enough water, getting enough sleep. There's like actually a lot of inner work that happens. Um, and I just, occurred to me that like you and I have done so much work together over the last couple of years. And, um, I really wanted to talk about this concept of caretaking, um, caretaking codependence boundaries and like, what does that even mean? What does that look like? And.
I guess the thing that it's coming to me is how do we healthfully be a caregiver? How do we be a caregiver in a healthy way that's supporting our wellbeing? And what is it we just said before we started recording? Losing ourselves, without losing ourselves, is that what we said? That's what we said. just again, before we jump into the conversation, so for some more context, there's this book that I recommend all the time when nurse practitioners come to me.
about burnout and compassion fatigue. And it's called to weep for a stranger. And it talks about, again, I think it addresses that piece of like, what is it that adds to this experience of, of burnout? And people think that it's this one thing on the top, but really underneath it, kind of gets to that piece of why are you doing this in the first place? What does this mean to you? And like, where, where are you coming from it? Like, are you coming from it in a place of like solidity in yourself?
or are you losing yourself in the caregiving, which is what is contributing. So that's a lot of backstory, but I think that this is relevant, whether you're a nurse practitioner, you are some sort of service provider, caregiver, but I would just love to talk with you just like a very informal way, talking about like, I don't know, where do wanna jump in with that? I mean, maybe like maybe what you would, where do you wanna jump in? Do you wanna talk about like what caretaking is?
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (04:47.734)
like the context of how this came up. Like I feel, guess one last piece of context is that when I was in the middle of this and you introduced this concept to me, I was like, no idea that this was a thing. Like the way I was behaving in this, in this way is just the way that I feel like I was socially conditioned, socially female raised. And then also being in a caretaking profession, caregiving profession, it was like, this is just what we do. And this is what all society tells us to do. And then you were like, no.
this is the thing, this specific way that you're acting is a phenomenon and it can be this way or it could not be this way. So yeah, you jump in. What are your thoughts? Okay. So I guess I want to just provide a little more context of why this conversation is so important because as a coach, I work with a lot of caregivers in healthcare and also in the service providing industries.
And I think one of the most important reasons that we all need to get a grip, like to get a grip on our caregiving tendencies is for longevity. Because I see so many caregivers leaving their service providing industries because they haven't found a way to be of service without losing themselves in the process. And so I think if you have a commitment to
maintain your profession in the long term without the burnout, without the compassion fatigue, and without like leaving the industry altogether, then this conversation is absolutely essential. Yeah. Really, really, really, really. And it's wild because I think the thing that strikes me about it is like, yeah, it's just so, it's so prevalent and it's so hidden at the same time. So yeah, what, where, what, how?
for me at least, the context of that, that it arose was that I was, I think it was like in relationship with somebody or like, and we were talking about like, oh, that's caretaking. Do you want to start there and give like an example of what this looks like? What exactly we're talking about? Absolutely. So caretaking is a tendency in relationships where we are taking care, taking care of someone else in order to
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (07:10.022)
feel good about ourselves in order to feel a sense of value, a sense of worthiness, really like to boost up our own self identity, right? So it's like, I am doing something to you or for you in order to feel good about me. So whether it's problem solving, fixing, helping, providing solutions, like
I'm sure your community knows how badass of a business owner you are. you have like you in particular, y'all, Liz is an amazing master business mind. Like she is a visionary. And one of the gifts of being a visionary is you're filled with ideas. And so you just wanna, you just wanna share, like you wanna share your gifts. And when you're sharing your gifts and giving to others and filling up someone else's cup while emptying your own,
That's caretaking. It's an energy imbalance. It is a recipe for burnout or exhaustion or fatigue or bitterness or resentment in relationships. And we so often think that when we care for other people, like we do this a lot, think in romantic partnerships. I know I used to for sure. We think that our partners are going to
show their love in the same way. Like, I just need to give, I just need to help, I just need to, you know, clean up, buy them gifts, whatever, depending on whatever your love language is or how you express your love, like that your partner will reciprocate. When in reality, like caretaking is often a function of our egoic minds, of our fear-based selves that haven't fully developed the capacity to ask for what we need directly.
or to know what our enough, like what our enough maximum is. Like, I always say that we can give to someone else to the cap where we don't feel resentment or a transactional expectancy from our partner, right? when I, so I imagine many of your,
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (09:37.956)
your listeners identify as empathic or are very heart centered, caring nature. So I'm very much an empath and I know you are too. And so we have a natural predisposition to give, to wanna help, to wanna be of service, to wanna care for other people, which is a beautiful gift. And our gifts can also be our kryptonites, right? It's like we have to learn how to protect and hold sacred our gifts so that...
we don't weaponize them against ourselves. And so the way I always say it is like, I can give to my husband, to my clients, to my friends, to my family, until that limit where I expect something in return. Because when I pass that limit, then I'm not giving.
from myself, like I'm not giving from my own inherent desire or urge to care or help or love. I'm giving because I expect something in return and that is crucial. So actually, I don't know if I shared this with you, but I'm having another episode coming up about covert contracts and drama triangle, which is also part of this dynamic. So we can totally touch on covert contracts because I feel like.
talk about that for ages. But yeah, think what I'd really love is especially, so what I'm thinking about is for nurse practitioners, this may be a really novel conversation for people. And I think it can be hard sometimes to parse out. It's like, well, that's part of my job. I am a caregiver. I'm here to help people and support them and guide them and all this stuff. And I think that's why it also gets super messy because it is inherently part of the job that you are giving.
and being of service. like, so I'd love to break it down even more with like some examples. Like, I don't know, are there any examples you can specifically speak to? Like, I guess if you're speaking with the care, like the clients that you work with who are in caregiving professions, like, can you think of any examples of like, I learned really well from examples and also like what's the positive and negative or what's the opposite of each other?
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (11:55.55)
so like, what is a caretaking exchange look like? So maybe for example, like if you had an example or thinking about a nurse practitioner, like working in the clinic setting, could be an example of like, you know, caretaking in a colleague relationship, caretaking and a boss relationship, caretaking and a patient relationship. Like there's so many ways that this can show up. Like what is, what is an example of the, the quote unquote healthier way versus the caretaking way? So a quote.
And I love that. would totally provide some examples, but by way of context, a quote that comes to mind for me as I think about this concept is something my mentor once said to me. And he said, if you're doing something for me without including me, you're doing it to me. And I feel like that sums up caretaking. It's like, so in a collegial fashion,
Right? Like if you have a colleague who is under resourced, maybe they don't manage their time well, or maybe they don't get their paperwork done, and you jump in to over function for them, whether it's to like help them manage their time on their behalf, to let them know that they have like in a client coming up or right, you're like you're doing it for them, right? So you're kind of you're
You're making an assumption about what their need is. Yeah. You're making an assumption about what their need is and you're like taking care of them as if they don't have the ability to take care of themselves. Through a positive spirit, like, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, absolutely. So you're like literally jumping in to be the hero or the heroine and like do something for them, which is actually their job description, like their responsibility, their obligation to
clean up after themselves or get all of their paperwork in or manage their client appointments, right? So like that is caretaking. So you're essentially, you're not relating to someone as you're equal, you're relating to them inside of a power dynamic where you assume that you know better.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (14:19.466)
or you could do it better, or you can do it with less efforting, or it would be easy for you to just jump in and help. Now, I think that's how it shows up in the professional, I think in the personal, it can be so much more, I don't know, just very, very transparent. Because if you see a home dynamic where one of the...
partners as a caretaker, typically the female identifying partner. Like there's a sense of over-functioning in the relationship where there is a imbalance between household responsibilities and duties that caretaker typically does more in the house. Maybe she or they multitask better or can handle more things or just.
Just take on more burden in the household because they're capable of it or they can do it or, but that's caretaking. Especially if you're jumping, if you haven't had an explicit conversation about, Hey, here's my responsibility. Here's your responsibility. It's like, I'm just going to take a guess. I'm going to assume that you need this or you want this and I'm going to do it for you either because.
I feel like I'm more capable. I'm trying to show you my love or I have a hidden agenda expectation of like, if I do this thing, it will mean that you see that I care for you or that means X, Y, or Z. that, that I feel like is such like an undercurrent of this dynamic is like, there's so much more involved than just like trying. And it is like, I feel like, I feel like so many people I'm so, I so appreciate those examples because I feel like it's so resident for people, especially what you said about, um,
doing something because they can. Because so many people, especially in the real world MP audience, I think identify with that place of being so capable, being so ambitious that it's like, yeah, no, I can do that. I can do anything. I can do whatever. But it's like, OK, well, why are you doing it? Sorry, go ahead. I just want to give an example of that because I experienced a very small example of this just before we hit record on this podcast. So my in-laws are visiting right now.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (16:34.298)
And they, it's, we recorded this episode right after the Thanksgiving holiday, right? So they're going back to Michigan and their flight is this afternoon. And my husband wanted me to drive with him and them to the airport. And I was like, and I could, right? Because I am an entrepreneur. I have so much flexibility in my schedule. And just because I can doesn't mean I should. And I think,
that caretaking persona, we often forget that just because we can doesn't mean we should. And so I was like, and my husband knows that I had the time in my calendar, so I could go with him to the airport. It's an hour drive and I didn't want to, like it wasn't actually in service of me to take two and a half hours out of my afternoon that I had carved out to like.
has some quiet time after hosting my in-laws for an extended weekend. Like I'm an introvert, I need that time. And so I lovingly told him that I wasn't gonna go with him. And it's hard for him to hear, right? We've been together a decade and it's still hard for him to hear sometimes me assert that boundary when I'm so often a yes. And I also just wanna acknowledge that even after a decade plus of practicing,
breaking up with my caretaking habits. I still felt that pain of guilt. I'm not gonna lie. Like, I still felt guilty. Like, I should go. But then I like checked in. Like, what is actually in service of me in this moment? And it's to stay home and to take care of myself. And you know, he's learning and he agrees. So we sent them an Uber and we're both home. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's what it looks like.
Totally. Yeah. Cause I love to, I love to tie in like, so we have this, like, I'm just trying to put myself in that place of nurse, like, cause I just feel like I've done so much work in this area for so many years that I'm just like trying to put myself back into my former, my former self of like, just being totally unaware of this. Like, I think that, I think I love that you, I love that you touch on, cause like there's the phenomenon itself. There's like the step.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (18:54.98)
of like, what is a different option? I guess I want to pause there real quick and say that like, none of this is in judgment. Like, I think for me, the purpose of me sharing this is that I've seen it so contribute to my own and other people's burnout and lack of sustainability and care caregiving fields that I think it's really important to talk about. And there are some people who will choose to operate in this way and not want to change. And that's totally fine. Right? Like these are all different choices that we can make. And so
If this is a dynamic that works for you, you're happy, you're fulfilled, your relationships are all in agreement. Like that's cool. Right. But, but yeah, I mean, I think it's like, I think like the step one is kind of just like the awareness of what the, what caretaking is, which is kind of a larger picture of co-dependence and like, what are, what does it look like to not do that? And then what is that journey in between? And I think that we've talked a little bit on, on my podcast and on my YouTube channel about
when it comes to burnout and talking about boundaries, I think it can feel so murky for so many people. But yeah, like maybe let's talk about, so that's great example of like, okay, here's the thing that I could do. I'm gonna check in with me, myself, my needs, right? So if we kind of just even like break down that situation of what you just shared, it's like, okay, don't really wanna do this. So I'll just desire, right? Don't want to. I also have some needs here. I have some physical needs. I'm exhausted. I need to recharge.
You know, there's underlying beliefs in there. And again, I'm putting this on, I'm painting this as an example case. So feels free to jump in, like not to paint your own thoughts about it, but it's like, it sounds like you have a belief about, know, I'm worthy of being well rested with my cup full. And that is a standard that's not like, that would be nice. You know? And then there's another layer in there. That's like, you don't, you, you are comfortable enough in yourself that like the guilt in there is pro like,
If you want to talk more about this and say more about this, but I'm just tying it. I hear it so often in our audience of like, I feel like I feel the guilt of what I should do because of somebody else's expectations, which also like ties into like that kind of like agenda, covert contract, unexplicit communication. Like, does that make sense? Like, yeah, what do you. Maybe we could like segue to talk about needs because I feel like they are so directly and secretly.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (21:21.477)
connected. if I think back to my own initial days of really coming to terms with my own caretaking and codependent traits, I wasn't getting my own needs met for myself on my own terms and by my own volition. I was getting my needs met indirectly through caring for other people.
through helping, through over-functioning, through being like the heroine who came in with the cape on her back, right? Like helping everyone, like having time for everyone, like being really just like that. I mean, she was so obnoxious. my God. And no judgment, like I have so much compassion for her because that's exactly what I saw growing up.
You know, like I grew up in a bed and breakfast, like we cared for people 24 seven, right? Like we were always helping other people, having a smile on our face. How can I help you? What do you need? Like, where do you want to go today? Like, where can I make a reservation for you tonight? Right? Like, as we always had this mask on, but so I, I very much like can identify with that part of me that
got so much validation and affirmation and approval through caring for other people. The reality was that like, I didn't really know who I was. Like I didn't have a grasp on what my own needs or preferences or desires or boundaries were. And I mean,
It's kind of brutally honest to say it this way, but I was using other people to get my needs met. And then I was blaming them for it or getting resentful at them for it or bitter towards them because they weren't reciprocating or they weren't meeting me. When in reality, like I didn't have a voice. Like I didn't have a voice to say, like, I, you know, I wanna, I want you to plan a date night next week. And I don't wanna have to.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (23:44.879)
have anything to do with it or like I'm going to clean the house this weekend and fold your laundry. But I really want you to go get the car fixed and not even have to ask about it. my God. This makes me so happy because I just love how you can talk about it in such a light way. And I'm laughing because I so like I see myself in that for sure. And I know that so many people will see themselves in it. And I think that like that bringing that levity to it is like
It can feel so heavy and it can feel kind of gross. Like I think when we were talking about it, was like, Ooh, I feel so yucky. Like I'm being actually kind of manipulative. And I was thinking that I was helpful. Right. And it's like, no, it gets to be light. It's okay. Yeah. And you were manipulative and you were helpful. Right. Like it's just, it's just, is what it is and it's what we learned. And it's, that's completely okay.
And I think having not only a healthy sense of humor and levity around it, but also just a willingness to be transparent and say it like it is actually helps in overcoming that really like unsustainable for many of us way of being in relationships. What do you feel like is an inroad, right? So if we've kind of like started with like, what does caretaking look like?
like the foundational aspects that are embedded in it has to do with what our needs are. Where do people, where do we take it from there? Like what is, what is that next kind of concrete place that people can go in terms of like, wow, I see myself in this conversation. Yeah, I am neglecting my needs or like, I'm curious to ship this pattern because I do feel really burnt out. What do you feel like would be next for, that part of the conversation? So baseline to normalize that it is highly likely that you have no fricking clue what you need.
And that is absolutely normal. You're probably terrified about this conversation and you're like, gosh, I don't even know where to start. I don't know what my needs are. And I, that's exactly how I felt Liz. And I imagine that's exactly how you felt. yeah. 100%. Well, you gave me, I mean, spoiler alert, you gave me an assignment when we first talked about this a couple of years ago and you were like, I need you to start putting post-it notes around the house that says, what do I need?
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (26:10.395)
Well, I need chapstick, right? I think you did a podcast with this a couple of years ago, too. It's like, do I, do I need chapstick or like in the moment you just named what you needed? You're like, I need chapstick. I need to drink a water. I have to go to the bathroom. We actually talked about, um, I have another podcast episode that talks about, uh, burnout with this burnout coach. And that's one of her mottos is like P and you have to pee.
like is just talking about what your needs are. Like what do you, what do you need right now? And not delaying that you have to pee, not delaying taking a drink, right? I've been muting myself and coughing and taking drinks and it's like, I'm just taking care of myself, but yeah, continue. Absolutely. So baseline, it's so likely you have no clue how to answer that question. And that is completely normal and okay. And where both of us were when we started on this journey.
And one of my very first practices was the exact same practice that I offered you, like to literally put a post-it note up, what do I need in this moment? Like everywhere in my house. And then, so that's the first step, just normalizing. And then the second step is acknowledging that you have probably been, stepping over your needs for years, right? Like, like not peeing when you have to pee.
Right? Like I, for so many years, like literally wouldn't let myself pee until I finished a call or I finished a task at hand or I wrote a blog or I wrote a newsletter. Like how ridiculous is that? Totally. I mean, it's, it's also like, it's just, it's also so normal. Like that is like the life of a clinician is especially when you have a busy clinic, so many patients, so much work to do it, but it takes 30 seconds. I mean, maybe it takes longer, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's
Not, yeah, it is absurd, I think, being outside of it and in the moment, it's like, well, I don't have a choice. I have patients to see this is busy, there's stuff to do. And it's like, actually, you get to choose yourself because this job is going to exist when if you leave it or if you stay, those patients are going to be OK. Right. Like, it's so hard not to get really wrapped up into the super significance of our work, but it but and also like it's not sustainable. Like and I talked about this in a couple of episodes.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (28:21.723)
But it's like, at least part of the thing for me too, was like stepping into this, is choosing myself was like, I can't do this. I can't do the thing for the people that I want to do unless I take care of myself. And so to build that muscle of caring for myself genuinely, it was like, yeah, like I'm not going to be able to sustain in this career and help all these people if I don't, if I don't do this, I have to do this for them. Right. And that was like a proxy. Like I'm not there anymore, but yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, I completely concur.
So, I mean, a couple of thoughts that came up as you were speaking is like when we start to reckon with our needs, I think it starts, we start to really come to terms with the fact that we're humans, like we're humans and that we get to treat ourselves with that same compassion and generosity and care that we extend to others.
And most of us don't, most of us are, are practiced, are, really like habituated and caring for other people at the expense of ourselves. And I think as caretakers and as service providers, so often one of the greatest ways that we can contribute to other people is actually modeling the very habits and practices that,
that we're teaching about, you know, like even like last month was I had a doctor's appointment in Cambridge and I showed up 18 minutes late and they had a 15 minute grace window for the appointment. I had scheduled this appointment six weeks ahead of time after having rescheduled it two months ahead of time that like this was like a highly emotional appointment for me and I was late and took me an hour and 45 minutes to get to the appointment, which is why I was late.
And then I had to turn around and come back two months later. And when the doctor's nurse told me that she wouldn't see me, that I had to come back, right? Like I was initially like so pissed, right? But then I had to like swallow my own medicine and realize like, no, this is actually a doctor's office where I wanna go because they honor their boundaries. And I can really appreciate that.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (30:47.075)
Right? Like she didn't care for me at the expense of herself or her schedule for the rest of the day. Like she honored her appointments and her boundaries around her business policies and her practice. And I really appreciated that after swallowing my own medicine. I guess, I guess what I'm wondering is, cause I just, my gosh, there are just so many places we could go in terms of the conversation.
I wonder, do you feel like, I guess I'm debating whether or not, like, I'm trying to put myself in the, in the people's perspective of like, I wonder if, I guess if we can put ourselves back in that place of the novelty of it, do you feel like it would be helpful to kind of connect with other examples of how this shows up versus talking about the steps? I mean, we've given people a concrete step to think about, right? What are my needs? Like, what do I actually need in this moment?
And then like making the choice to honor that without think like, mean, we can still be in relationship with people, right? It doesn't mean that we have to just like be this total, like I only do what's great for me all the time, right? It's like, we still get to be in relationship and choose to make compromises and stuff like that. But I guess, guess I'm trying to figure out what are your thoughts, especially with your audience too. Go for it. So, So, so, so far we've talked about this idea that it's likely you don't know what your needs are.
and you've likely been getting your needs met through helping other people for a very long time, right? So these are, we're just kind of like laying some planks here. So the next plank is to start to get into relationship with what your needs are and also starting to build that self-trust around the idea that you actually know what you need. You're just wildly disconnected from your needs.
Gosh, I was wildly disconnected from my own needs for so long. knowing what you need in any moment is just like working out a muscle group at the gym that you haven't worked out in a couple years. You start small, you do some reps, and then you gain strength and resiliency with time. So as you lean into the practice of getting into relationship with your own needs, you will gain more access
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (33:12.26)
to more and more of what you need, right? So like even wait for her to just do that example in this like very moment, right? If I were to sit and tune in in this moment and see what I need, like I need to uncross my legs. Like really have a desire for both feet on the ground. I kind of want to sip of water.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (33:38.884)
Was that thing I said too? Gosh, after we get off this call, I want to go cuddle with my puppies who've been so patiently sitting behind me. And I want to close my laptop for the rest of the day, because this is the only other thing I have to do today. And let's see, what else? And tonight, like I actually want amazing quality time with my husband, because I feel like I've been sharing him all weekend.
Now, I will say that like that probably took a couple of years for me to be able to list out all of those things. And those are pretty simple. But when we become so predispositioned in our relationships to defer our own needs to the needs and preferences of other people, we actually have to like take the reins back.
Right? Like, and I think such an easy example is like, think about when you go out to a restaurant. this used to be such a contentious topic. I was just going to say that. Yeah, go ahead. Like, because my husband is a huge foodie and, and he would always want to go out to dinner when we first started dating. And, and he would be like, what do you want? And I was like, no, like, what do you want? No, what do you want?
And was like such a hot button. And it was so hard for me to actually pause, tune in, and come up with two or three restaurants where I would be delighted to go out. Like for so many years, all we had was pizza or calzones because that's where we finally ended because I wouldn't just pause and think like, I want a salad tonight.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (35:35.044)
It's so tragic, right? But that's like- I just really love that you're giving these examples though, because I feel like I've done a lot of work on this too. And I feel like I'm at that point too of like, can name those things, but then like, just love that that was so, those things are so simple and it's so hard. Like, I just really love that you're normalizing that because I think there's just like also a lot of shame around it of like, oh yeah. Like, and also this deservingness piece, I think that that's like a real sneaky thing in there. Like I don't-
deserve those pieces. So it's, it's, I love that. love that. Okay. So let's take it to the next level because I feel like in the, um, in the journey of, um, kind of coming to terms with your own caretaking tendencies, um, it really requires you to get into a relationship with yourself.
I think one of the consequences of being a caretaker and sometimes being codependent is that we don't really know who we are. And it can be really hard to enjoy resting, enjoy spending quality time with ourselves, taking ourselves out on a date and not being helpful or
like productive, right? Like breaking up with your productive tendencies and learning how to enjoy rest or doing what you love or pursuing a pastime or a hobby is a real journey. And it's also incredibly liberating. And I think it can be the path for many of us who identify
as givers to really find that balance by getting back into relationship with ourselves. Yeah. And that's really novel, I think, in our culture. Like, at least in, I just don't feel like that's something that's talked about in the US. Yeah. It's, people's own individual humanity is really glazed over.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (38:01.092)
I don't even know if I ever told you about like my own journey with like discovering my codependency because it really was like, it started in the area of romance. Like I lost myself in all my romantic relationships prior to meeting my husband. Every single one of them. Like I didn't know who I was. And it started in...
it started working with my own therapist to like come to terms with my own bitterness and resentment about how I was royally not getting my needs met in my relationship to ending that unhealthy relationship. And then kind of that's kind of where coaching started. And I was like, okay, now what do I want? Like I've let this go, now what do I want? And I was so...
grateful for it because really healing, because I don't actually know if we labeled this, but the caregiving trait for when it is unhealed is it's a self abandonment wound, right? It's like we abandon ourselves when we are routinely.
giving and taking care of other people. Yeah, like the over involvement in terms of assuming what people need, what we think that they need or what would be best for them jumping in and doing that without having a conversation about it and doing it to them. And then I think the other piece, like just to tie those kinds of ideas together, because people, think a lot of people are familiar with the concept of people pleasing, where it's like someone asks or something and you're just like, yeah, okay, cause I'm just like trying to make you happy kind of thing.
But yeah, all of these pieces, like people pleasing is self abandonment. Like you're just, you're totally abandoning yourself and your own needs and your own wants in favor of somebody else. And then I feel like the caretaking adds that other layer of like, not only are you abandoning yourself, but you're also like making all of those assumptions and managing like a little hands. I feel like ties in this third part of the journey, which is voice. Yeah. And boundaries.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (40:23.362)
Because when you start to get into relationship with yourself, and like for me, when I started healing that unhealed part of myself and my own kind of self abandoning in relationship and romantic relationship, and then I got out of it, I started taking myself out on weekly dates to figure out like, who the heck am I? do wanna do? What I feel like doing? Yeah, totally. And then.
And then the voice part came in, like, how do I start including other people in what I wanna do, in what I wanna eat, in how I wanna spend my time, in how I want to be loved, be cared for, like even be respected in business, right? And I think that the voice part is often kind of like the third.
chapter of this journey. And I think boundaries is a way to start including people, including people and getting back into relationship with other people in the professional as much as in the personal realm in a healthy, more sustainable way. I love that. You know, I love a framework.
Step one, two and three. Can we recap the steps again? What was the first step? So the first step is normalizing that you likely don't know what you need and getting into relationship with your needs. The second step is learning how to enjoy spending time and being with yourself. And the third step is learning how to include other people.
it's like communicate boundaries and yeah, like be authentic, be self-expressed. Yeah, totally. my gosh. So many things I want to say. I guess one thing that's occurring to me, and maybe this is like a topic for another time or too big of a thing, or maybe still in process, but I think you and I sort of touched on this recently of like,
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (42:48.972)
the experience of being a more boundary person in relationship with people who are not on that same journey. Do you know what I'm referring to? Like, like I think one thing that's been a little bit jarring for me, and I'm more comfortable with it now, but it's like, I think it's just a really interesting dynamic. Once I've made those shifts in terms of the boundaries and being self honoring with people who are not necessarily in that, in that place. Do you have any thoughts about that? Any, any, or is that too big of a topic? Like, I don't know.
I mean, I think like some high level thoughts are, if you are a giver, it is likely that you attract takers. I'm to pause on that one. Okay. Right? Like it makes a lot of sense because opposites attract and we all need that polarity in our relationships, both personal and professional.
So it is highly likely that you will attract takers. You will attract people who benefit from your generosity. So that's like, that's, think starting there is really important. I also think that as you become more boundary in a self honoring way, it's also very predictable and normal.
that you will outgrow some of your relationships, that you will let go, move past, grow beyond, right? Like, even if I think about myself as a coach, as I've been coaching the last decade, like I have evolved the types of people that I attract into my practice based on the work that I've been doing in the conversations that I'm in and the energy that I exude.
So I think that's totally normal. And it's also really heartbreaking. know, like I've lost some really dear people in my life because I showed up in an unhealthy way and I just gave and gave and gave to no avail. I also trained the other people I was in relationship with to expect that, that that's the norm. And I created that norm. So it's on me.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (45:17.142)
Yeah. And some people, as we grow and as we elevate our own boundaries around what we are willing to give, like where our line, where our boundaries, where our capacity stops, some people will rise to the occasion and meet us and be willing to reinvent and up-level relationships and some will not. And we don't get to control that either. Yeah.
Oh, well, I want to I want to be mindful of time. think like one thing well, you can you can share what you think. I think one thing that I would really love what I love to do is like have if people are interested in like learning more about this or exploring this more. Are there any resources you can think of that you would recommend or I don't know. I didn't prepare. I didn't prepare you for that question, but just offhand.
I mean, you know me, like I'm such an avid reader. Yeah. Definitely. I think a couple of books I'd recommend. Totally. Whether you're a reader or you enjoy audio book. So the first one that was like a really earth shattering for me was a book called Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. Melody comes from the recovery world. So she uses a lot of jargon.
based on 12 step programs. So it's definitely a book where I would invite you to take a, like to give yourself a healthy dose of permission to take what supports you and leave the rest. But her principles are like gold. I really have read that too. It's really, really eye-opening. I love that book. And then more recently in our mastermind, we read Living Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg.
which have you, you've read it, you've read the book. So I've read, I haven't finished it actually, but Nonviolent Communication, it's actually on my desk right now. Nonviolent Communication, I think is the first book and then Living Nonviolent Communication is a second book by that same person. So I love the second book because it's more practical and he literally, he workshops, it's, I mean, it's a very business savvy book. Like he literally has,
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (47:42.414)
many of his conferences and workshops and seminars transcribed. And then he takes the work he does with attendees and he inserts it into a book. So it's a great business model. Wow. Yeah, totally. But I also really love it because he actually walks you through how these conversations go and how this book specifically relates to our conversation is that his framework, like the framework of nonviolent communication is based on this
very foundational concept that most of us have tragically unmet needs. And because we have tragically unmet needs, we create harm in our relationships. create resentments and bitterness and mean, conflict, right? He's done mediation in many war zones, but it's...
based on this foundational concept that most of us have tragically unmet needs. We are tragically disconnected from our needs. And the whole model in his book is a framework around helping us to get reconnected with our needs and learn how to connect our needs with our feelings and then make requests. Yeah. I was going to say in terms of to sum it up, well,
This is the main piece that I've been using in my personal life, is, it's like, whenever you're communicating with somebody about a need, it's like, first step is I notice, I noticed that blah, blah, blah, blah. I feel, here's how you feel about it. Here's what I need. And what's I think been interesting is to, in these conversations I've been having with people is like, what does a need actually mean?
And it has to do with like me, myself. It's not like, Oh, I need from you to do blah, blah, blah. No, no, that's actually a not a need. That's not a need. That's a request. And so I need to feel safe in this conversation. And I would request that you lower your voice. Right. Would you be willing to, would you be willing? Yes. Yeah. So yeah, we just, we just use a straight up I request and then, and then the other piece of it. And I, and I've talked about this with, um, uh, we use, I feel like you and I've talked about we've, but we've talked about how.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (49:58.828)
The book doesn't, I don't know if it necessarily addresses this, but like just because someone makes a request does not mean we have to do it. Right. And that comes back to that self honoring piece of like, yeah, that would feel really great for me if you would do blah, blah, blah. But like, I don't have capacity. I don't have interest. I don't have desire. I don't have ability. And like, that's how we get to be separate people who come together and like respect each other's needs. Yeah. And I think that comes back to your, the other topic that you love around covert.
contracts because when we make a request but the other person hears it as a demand or that it will be a problem if they don't agree, well then that's not a request. Like that is a demand and that's on us. And I also think just to normalize that because in our society, so many of us have tragically unmet needs, there is a lot of built up resentment and hurt in
in many of our closest relationships. And I think now more than ever with the pandemic and the imbalance of household responsibilities and caring in the home. So there's a lot of built up anger and pain there. So it's highly likely that as you start to practice asking for what you need, it's likely not going to be met with
an openheartedness or a willingness or generosity at first, right? Because there's going to be this like just very natural expectation that, you don't really mean that. Or you actually like, this is not actually a request. Like this is gonna be a huge problem if I don't align or give in. So it's a practice and it takes time. And I think a really good gauge is
engaged to know you're on the right track, you will literally feel the difference in your relationships when you're practicing NVC, nonviolent communication. When you're practicing NVC in the household and your partners or even your children start to energetically like know that they can say yes, no, or a counter offer to your requests. That you've created a shift. Yeah, I love that.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (52:17.888)
Yeah. And I think just also just, think one thing that you've helped me so much with is just radical transparency of, what's the, you always say it the same way. And it's not coming to me, but it's like a being self revealing, I think is how you say it. But it's just like, even like, so in my personal relationships, I've started using NBC framework, especially for difficult conversations. And I, and I explicitly said to them, Hey,
I have this new model of this thing that I'm going to practice and here step. Like I I'm comfortable saying that, but just being transparent, even if like, it's not like, like a guessing thing of like, why is she started all of a sudden talking like that? Right. Like, no, like I'm going to use this framework. would be really, really meaningful for me. My request, right. When I put that through, if you would practice doing this with me kind of thing, right? Like we can just be transparent about, Hey, things are shifting for me. I'm practicing this new thing and let's be in communication about it. Yeah.
I mean, just to like normalize this, cause I'm mindful of your audience, but when we start to shift in our relationships in one area of life, it affects how we show up and who we be everywhere else. Right? So imagine if you create this massive shift in your home life where you are feeling, well resourced and cherished and appreciated by your spouse.
Imagine the domino effect of how that impacts the grace and the compassion and the self-honoring that you can extend to your patients and your clients and your colleagues and how you show up for your work and then how you leave it at the end of the day because you're getting more of your needs met at home. So naturally it's going to require you to get less of your needs met at work.
Woo. Can we mic drop there? That's so good. Thank you so much, Kat. I mean, I know you primarily work with entrepreneurs and so maybe my people, like, I feel like people just would love to hear your stuff. And so is there a place that people should check out all of your work so they can learn more from you and just hear your magical wisdom? I mean, I feel like the podcast is the first place I send people.
Liz Rohr (they/she) | Real World NP (54:37.728)
I think you get the most intimate experience. So my podcast is the Prosperous Empath. And I think that's a great place to take what supports you. Some of the topics may not feel as relevant, but others absolutely will. Thank you so much. You're the best. I love you. So fun. That's our episode for today. Thank you so much for listening.
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